Mango - all you need to know about it (threads merged)
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Rumours are
They need 40 crews.
SAA 738 F/O's will be offered a 3 year contract to move across as Captains, whilst remaining in SAA's employ.
F/O pay in the region of 10K/month
(is LCC after all).
Start Dec 1st.
But you all know aviation, all the rumours we have to date may be wrong
They need 40 crews.
SAA 738 F/O's will be offered a 3 year contract to move across as Captains, whilst remaining in SAA's employ.
F/O pay in the region of 10K/month
(is LCC after all).Start Dec 1st.
But you all know aviation, all the rumours we have to date may be wrong
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Rumours Yes!
Reading all this, one quickly gets reminded that this is only a rumour network...
R10k per month - I believe that Instructors flying C172/P28A's at certain schools are earning more than this.
Sure, to fly a 738 - but it has to get off the ground first. With the whole idea of a new AOC etc I do have serious reservations about this though. I'd say, don't get your hopes up too early though (unfortunately).
With the amount of SAA Cadets hanging around at Solenta/Link/SAX and who knows where else, I do not understand why they would even consider getting a whole lot of FO's either. Might only put Solenta/Link/SAX under pressure to replace their Cadets... Dunno, but just get the idea that there is a lot of business/financial implications that need to be ironed out first.
If it flies, its good for all - but buy a ticket for the first flight once the gate is closed..
R10k per month - I believe that Instructors flying C172/P28A's at certain schools are earning more than this.
Sure, to fly a 738 - but it has to get off the ground first. With the whole idea of a new AOC etc I do have serious reservations about this though. I'd say, don't get your hopes up too early though (unfortunately).
With the amount of SAA Cadets hanging around at Solenta/Link/SAX and who knows where else, I do not understand why they would even consider getting a whole lot of FO's either. Might only put Solenta/Link/SAX under pressure to replace their Cadets... Dunno, but just get the idea that there is a lot of business/financial implications that need to be ironed out first.
If it flies, its good for all - but buy a ticket for the first flight once the gate is closed..
Last edited by Q4NVS; 1st May 2006 at 08:31.
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Think carefully before you leap!!
I don't know where Reptile has been getting his info from, but it has never been SAA's intention to use SAX or their pilots to crew this operation.
For all those being approached by SAA as potential Captains for this operation, think very carefully before you give notice to your current employer. Remember, you will not be getting a job with SAA but with a fully independent subsidiary of SAA. You will have no union representation, very few benefits and you will most likely be baby-sitting SAA cadets who will occupy the right hand seats. You are looking at a total pay package in the region of R600,000.
Additionally, with the current and recently former SAA management's ability to run an airline, what chance does this carrier have for long-term survival? They botched up their $20 million partnership with Air Tanzania and have had to bail out of that venture, they were rejected as a partner for a national Nigerian carrier, and they are rapidly destroying SAA through poor management oversight and practises.
As an example, if they are so experienced, how could they, around the middle of April, initially give a start-up date for this LCC of the beginning of June, when they did not have an AOC for this company, a management structure in place or any crews trained?? As an autonomous company they will need to hire an entire new management for this airline, yet they can't even find decent management for the parent airline. Rumour has it that the new flight operations boss, a senior captain with a lot of union managment experience but limited airline management experience, is literally the only executive manager with any airline experience and the entire SAA executive is literally looking to him to salvage SAA and to set up this low cost carrier. How experienced is he if he thought he could set up an entire new airline in just over two months?
What is the point of all of this? With SAA's current management track record and shoot-from-the-hip style of management and decision making, do you really want to give up your position and seniority at your current airline to work for a jumped up version of SA Airlink that could be shut down in six months or less if it lands up being another lame duck for SAA? Remember, it is very easy for SAA to simply transfer the B737-800's that are being sub-leased to this carrier back into the parent company. Passengers with bookings can simply be accommodated on SAA flights and there you will have another failed SAA venture!!
For all those being approached by SAA as potential Captains for this operation, think very carefully before you give notice to your current employer. Remember, you will not be getting a job with SAA but with a fully independent subsidiary of SAA. You will have no union representation, very few benefits and you will most likely be baby-sitting SAA cadets who will occupy the right hand seats. You are looking at a total pay package in the region of R600,000.
Additionally, with the current and recently former SAA management's ability to run an airline, what chance does this carrier have for long-term survival? They botched up their $20 million partnership with Air Tanzania and have had to bail out of that venture, they were rejected as a partner for a national Nigerian carrier, and they are rapidly destroying SAA through poor management oversight and practises.
As an example, if they are so experienced, how could they, around the middle of April, initially give a start-up date for this LCC of the beginning of June, when they did not have an AOC for this company, a management structure in place or any crews trained?? As an autonomous company they will need to hire an entire new management for this airline, yet they can't even find decent management for the parent airline. Rumour has it that the new flight operations boss, a senior captain with a lot of union managment experience but limited airline management experience, is literally the only executive manager with any airline experience and the entire SAA executive is literally looking to him to salvage SAA and to set up this low cost carrier. How experienced is he if he thought he could set up an entire new airline in just over two months?
What is the point of all of this? With SAA's current management track record and shoot-from-the-hip style of management and decision making, do you really want to give up your position and seniority at your current airline to work for a jumped up version of SA Airlink that could be shut down in six months or less if it lands up being another lame duck for SAA? Remember, it is very easy for SAA to simply transfer the B737-800's that are being sub-leased to this carrier back into the parent company. Passengers with bookings can simply be accommodated on SAA flights and there you will have another failed SAA venture!!
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True! But you will then be starting off from scratch with establishing collective agreements and will be getting royally screwed in the interim. I would not be surprised to see pilots being hired on three year contracts as opposed to permanent positions!!
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That comes with the territory in a startup. Your statement that pilots will get royally screwed in the interim sounds like a SAAPA statement. Either you accept conditions for employment when you sign up or you don’t sign up.
This is a great opportunity for 70 odd pilots to get 738 ratings and/or upgrades to the left seat . As for 3 year contracts - that is pure speculation.
Just because SAAPA and the rest of the SAA drivers see this development as a threat, does not mean it's a bad idea. More work for pilots - GREAT!
This is a great opportunity for 70 odd pilots to get 738 ratings and/or upgrades to the left seat . As for 3 year contracts - that is pure speculation.
Just because SAAPA and the rest of the SAA drivers see this development as a threat, does not mean it's a bad idea. More work for pilots - GREAT!
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Either you accept conditions for employment when you sign up or you don’t sign up.
Just because SAAPA and the rest of the SAA drivers see this development as a threat, does not mean it's a bad idea. More work for pilots - GREAT!
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Originally Posted by TooBadSoSad
This is not more work for pilots!!
World-wide experience has shown that LCC's attrack customers who previously used another mode of transport. Although introducing another LCC might not be great news for existing carriers, the theory is that more people will fly. It is therefore not guaranteed that any carrier in SA will go under as a result of SAA starting a LCC. The biggest danger to other carriers (read CE) would be an exodis of pilots. I believe AfricanSkies is way off with his claim that pilots at the new LCC will be payed 10k.
SAAPA is crying crocodile tears about the new LCC, and rightfully too - but their drivers are simply too expensive. No airline in this market market can survive with the level of pilot labour cost SAA is carying. If anyone is going to feel the pain of the new LCC, then it is SAAPA. Once SAA makes a profit with the LCC, they will apply HUGE pressure on SAAPA to reduce labour costs. Enjoy the MoP agreement - it might soon be a thing of the past.
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SAA LOW COST AIRLINE
I have been following this story with interest. Has anybody stopped to wonder why Kulula and 1Time dont use B738's for their operations. Perhaps its because it is impossible to make a PROFIT in South Africa with this type of equipment that has lease costs of some $375 000 PER MONTH while ticket prices are R800 return to CPT!!!
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SAA GET BORED OF DOMESTIC COMPETITION
South African airways having experienced the excitment of the new low-cost full service strategy on the Joburg - Cape Town popular route are now bored of the 4 other airlines competing with them. While SAA continue to be the leading airline for the route, they are getting tired of some of the other airlines on their backs with flight times ridicoulously similar to themselves. So as SAA next great idea to start up a new low-cost airline, they have a few aims in mind:
-To brush away airlines like Nationwide who sturggle anyway on the route
- To attempt to cut down British Airways who's average pax numbers are quite low and who are just holding in their
- To competitivley compete with Kulula and (1Time if they hold in)
- Reducing their fares to a minimal rate which will attract customers all around.
- To support a national reputiation for efficency, inexpense, reliablility and service
As South African Airways continues to propell forwards worldwide, especially with the new joining of Star Alliance, It plans to partner with this airline through flysaa.com so the airline will attract international connecting as well as domestic passengers.
-To brush away airlines like Nationwide who sturggle anyway on the route
- To attempt to cut down British Airways who's average pax numbers are quite low and who are just holding in their
- To competitivley compete with Kulula and (1Time if they hold in)
- Reducing their fares to a minimal rate which will attract customers all around.
- To support a national reputiation for efficency, inexpense, reliablility and service
As South African Airways continues to propell forwards worldwide, especially with the new joining of Star Alliance, It plans to partner with this airline through flysaa.com so the airline will attract international connecting as well as domestic passengers.
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Reptile,
You need to get over this sentiment that SAA pilot’s are overpaid. As I stated in a previous post they have actually proven they are underpaid. It is statements like this
“SAAPA is crying crocodile tears about the new LCC, and rightfully too - but their drivers are simply too expensive. No airline in this market market can survive with the level of pilot labour cost SAA is carrying”
that will perpetuate the situation that pilots at other South African carriers have to endure. It is at best speculation, at worst a management lie to state that no airline can survive with the level of pilot labour cost at SAA.
Last year there were examples of pilots who had flown their 800 hours by October, that capacity in December was reduced due to insufficient crew on the 73 fleet and that the company pays millions of rands in extra flight pay (which kicks in at, on average about 75hrs per month). The crew at SAA are not under utilised, inefficiently used, certainly, but under utilised and over paid – no way.
An attempt by the present SAA management to set up, without government help, a LCC should not have SAAPA or anyone else shaking in their boots (or “crying crocodile tears”), they have proven themselves that they are unable to run SAA with all the intervention and help they can get. This management believes people are not flying SAA because the price is wrong. I ask you now with tears in MY eyes show me one complaint wrt to price and I will show you a thousand complaining about service. LCC’s have never been about service – they are about price. Until SAA management realise their biggest problem is service and rectify this by hiring competent individuals with flair, passion and commitment this lack of service will be transferred to the LCC. Not only the lack of service will be transferred; expect the same kind of bungling, pathetic scheduling, mealy mouthed public relations and worst of all – inexperienced, under trained and very under paid crew. I don’t think 10k is too way off the mark for FO’s and from what I’ve heard about 26K for Captains. ($4300). Remember this will be prior to tax, medical, pension or any other benefits. (Rumour I know but remember this thread when it all becomes public knowledge).
Your statement “Once SAA makes a profit with the LCC, they will apply HUGE pressure on SAAPA to reduce labour costs. Enjoy the MoP agreement - it might soon be a thing of the past.”
Is exactly what we should all be working to avoid. This is in effect what TooBadSoSad has called whipsawing and it bodes ill for all pilots not just SAA. The MOP is an agreement (you know, the kind that takes two to tango) not a demand so get off your high horse of glee and try and negotiate one yourself.
You assume that SAAPA and the rest of the drivers at SAA see this as a threat, I don’t. SAA are basing their plans on what airlines like Lufthansa, Qantas and United amongst others have done – mostly with limited success. I think it will be a huge waste of money and a failure simply because you cannot run an airline with incompetent management.
You need to get over this sentiment that SAA pilot’s are overpaid. As I stated in a previous post they have actually proven they are underpaid. It is statements like this
“SAAPA is crying crocodile tears about the new LCC, and rightfully too - but their drivers are simply too expensive. No airline in this market market can survive with the level of pilot labour cost SAA is carrying”
that will perpetuate the situation that pilots at other South African carriers have to endure. It is at best speculation, at worst a management lie to state that no airline can survive with the level of pilot labour cost at SAA.
Last year there were examples of pilots who had flown their 800 hours by October, that capacity in December was reduced due to insufficient crew on the 73 fleet and that the company pays millions of rands in extra flight pay (which kicks in at, on average about 75hrs per month). The crew at SAA are not under utilised, inefficiently used, certainly, but under utilised and over paid – no way.
An attempt by the present SAA management to set up, without government help, a LCC should not have SAAPA or anyone else shaking in their boots (or “crying crocodile tears”), they have proven themselves that they are unable to run SAA with all the intervention and help they can get. This management believes people are not flying SAA because the price is wrong. I ask you now with tears in MY eyes show me one complaint wrt to price and I will show you a thousand complaining about service. LCC’s have never been about service – they are about price. Until SAA management realise their biggest problem is service and rectify this by hiring competent individuals with flair, passion and commitment this lack of service will be transferred to the LCC. Not only the lack of service will be transferred; expect the same kind of bungling, pathetic scheduling, mealy mouthed public relations and worst of all – inexperienced, under trained and very under paid crew. I don’t think 10k is too way off the mark for FO’s and from what I’ve heard about 26K for Captains. ($4300). Remember this will be prior to tax, medical, pension or any other benefits. (Rumour I know but remember this thread when it all becomes public knowledge).
Your statement “Once SAA makes a profit with the LCC, they will apply HUGE pressure on SAAPA to reduce labour costs. Enjoy the MoP agreement - it might soon be a thing of the past.”
Is exactly what we should all be working to avoid. This is in effect what TooBadSoSad has called whipsawing and it bodes ill for all pilots not just SAA. The MOP is an agreement (you know, the kind that takes two to tango) not a demand so get off your high horse of glee and try and negotiate one yourself.
You assume that SAAPA and the rest of the drivers at SAA see this as a threat, I don’t. SAA are basing their plans on what airlines like Lufthansa, Qantas and United amongst others have done – mostly with limited success. I think it will be a huge waste of money and a failure simply because you cannot run an airline with incompetent management.
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Wake up!!!
Samueldethiery-I see your domicile is London so maybe you don't understand the frustrations in South African aviation circles regarding SAA.
Take your head out of the sand please.SAA is a loss making airline. All the rest HAVE to make money without the assistance of the reserve bank or elae they will close down. SAA should get their house in order, stick to their operations that do make them money on and accept that they can't have it all.
By reducing their fares any further, they will merely lose more money.
You have a very weird idea about how things work and are strangely biased towards SAA. Long live the rest of the real airlines that are a success story in real terms in that THEY MAKE MONEY. Thats why they pay less than SAA and fly older aircraft.
Take your head out of the sand please.SAA is a loss making airline. All the rest HAVE to make money without the assistance of the reserve bank or elae they will close down. SAA should get their house in order, stick to their operations that do make them money on and accept that they can't have it all.
By reducing their fares any further, they will merely lose more money.
You have a very weird idea about how things work and are strangely biased towards SAA. Long live the rest of the real airlines that are a success story in real terms in that THEY MAKE MONEY. Thats why they pay less than SAA and fly older aircraft.
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Why is it that RyanAir are paying their Captains GBP100K and their F/O's GBP75K, ie. a very good salary, when other LCC's are trying to cut costs on salaries, too?
Maybe RyanAir have seen the light and know that if they pay peanuts they get monkeys and monkeys can't run the operation. With an LCC, the Captain takes responsibility for a wider scope of operation?
Maybe RyanAir have seen the light and know that if they pay peanuts they get monkeys and monkeys can't run the operation. With an LCC, the Captain takes responsibility for a wider scope of operation?
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[QUOTE=samueldethierry]. While SAA continue to be the leading airline for the route.
I don't quite agree. I believe that Comair has been the dominant player on this route for some time now (kulula + BA), and will be on the entire domestic market within a year (by Khaya's own admission, I'm told...)
I don't quite agree. I believe that Comair has been the dominant player on this route for some time now (kulula + BA), and will be on the entire domestic market within a year (by Khaya's own admission, I'm told...)
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[QUOTE=Rotates Lowly]
Although it sounds interesting, factually incorrect- SAA still has over 50% market share in the JNB CPT sector, the rest is divided up over all the other carriers
I think its a long stretch to even imagine Comair being the dominant player in this market, going forward they are not going to be able to grow their low cost brand the way they have been doing- in fact they are probabaly going to loose ground due to increased competition.
Originally Posted by samueldethierry
. While SAA continue to be the leading airline for the route.
I don't quite agree. I believe that Comair has been the dominant player on this route for some time now (kulula + BA), and will be on the entire domestic market within a year (by Khaya's own admission, I'm told...)
I don't quite agree. I believe that Comair has been the dominant player on this route for some time now (kulula + BA), and will be on the entire domestic market within a year (by Khaya's own admission, I'm told...)
I think its a long stretch to even imagine Comair being the dominant player in this market, going forward they are not going to be able to grow their low cost brand the way they have been doing- in fact they are probabaly going to loose ground due to increased competition.