Mango - all you need to know about it (threads merged)
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I have a question, if you hold a B732 type rating, to convert onto a B738 do you only need to do a differences course or do you need a whole new rating?
Dont know who is going to train these pilots, they say they want this low cost running by July....sounds impossible, the 800 sim at SAA and instructors are very busy at the moment.
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Shew, I could become a businessman yet!
Uncle Vernon's wallet might have to open
the 800 sim at SAA and instructors are very busy at the moment
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I have a friend in blighty that flies for one of the big charter boys - he's been in the sim in the wee small hours of the morning. Wonder if SAA's utilisation is that high
Unless they are using foreign crew on a contract I doubt they will start operations when they say they will.
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Originally Posted by Deskjocky
Fair comment ERJ, but if the drivers don’t earn a globally competitive salary eventually they will be lured away by foreign operators, then again ask for too much and the company goes further down the loo- salaries are a two edged sword. It costs more to recruit and train new pilots than it does to keep the existing ones. I guess they know they hold the cards.
Only thing is the "parity of earnings model" will eventually start to show the effects of salary concessions other pilot bodies have made to their own carriers. Perhaps SAAPA should look to amend the current agreement to ensure that there will be no back tracking in the future- because it will come one day- in favour of perhaps some concessions elsewhere…
In any event I don’t think the SAX route will be the one followed, there is a specific scope limitation clause in one of the collective agreements dealing with this. In effect if SAA were to do this then they would have to pay all the SAX pilots- current and new ones- the same as the equivalent pilot, in terms of seniority, at SAA. Furthermore a move like this would invalidate the autonomy the new carrier seeks.
Only thing is the "parity of earnings model" will eventually start to show the effects of salary concessions other pilot bodies have made to their own carriers. Perhaps SAAPA should look to amend the current agreement to ensure that there will be no back tracking in the future- because it will come one day- in favour of perhaps some concessions elsewhere…
In any event I don’t think the SAX route will be the one followed, there is a specific scope limitation clause in one of the collective agreements dealing with this. In effect if SAA were to do this then they would have to pay all the SAX pilots- current and new ones- the same as the equivalent pilot, in terms of seniority, at SAA. Furthermore a move like this would invalidate the autonomy the new carrier seeks.
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Originally Posted by The Actuator
ERJ135 - I'm trying to figure out what your angle is with your last comment -
"Sometimes one has to wonder "who" will have a great part to play in the real demise of SAA..?" Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be suggesting that if the pilot's at SAA were pushing for a pay rise this would cripple the airline further. If that is indeed what you mean allow me to clarify a few things.
Firstly - You get paid what you can negotiate - PERIOD. No more no less. The company will try to pay you the minimum they can to keep you in a position of relative comfort and the pilots will try to better that.
Secondly - The onus is on management to negotiate and understand the agreements they sign and the long term implications thereof. If they fail to do this it does not become the pilot's perogative to bail them out.
Thirdly - if as you claim the pilots are PUSHING for a 34% pay hike then that is what they have negotiated in terms of their agreements. Of course if the company is unable to pony up, perhaps management would be willing to repay the bonuses that they have recieved in the time period it has taken them to comply with the pilot's agreements - I ain't holding my breath.
What surprises me is that you seem to be having a go at the salaries at SAA in comparisom to the rest of the market. It seems to me that the pilots at SAA have proven (with arbitration) that they are underpaid in terms of the international market. That should be good news for all pilots in our country because it should surely follow that it would be a cinch to prove you are underpaid if you are paid less than what SAA pilots are paid - get thee to the negotiating table I say.
"Sometimes one has to wonder "who" will have a great part to play in the real demise of SAA..?" Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be suggesting that if the pilot's at SAA were pushing for a pay rise this would cripple the airline further. If that is indeed what you mean allow me to clarify a few things.
Firstly - You get paid what you can negotiate - PERIOD. No more no less. The company will try to pay you the minimum they can to keep you in a position of relative comfort and the pilots will try to better that.
Secondly - The onus is on management to negotiate and understand the agreements they sign and the long term implications thereof. If they fail to do this it does not become the pilot's perogative to bail them out.
Thirdly - if as you claim the pilots are PUSHING for a 34% pay hike then that is what they have negotiated in terms of their agreements. Of course if the company is unable to pony up, perhaps management would be willing to repay the bonuses that they have recieved in the time period it has taken them to comply with the pilot's agreements - I ain't holding my breath.
What surprises me is that you seem to be having a go at the salaries at SAA in comparisom to the rest of the market. It seems to me that the pilots at SAA have proven (with arbitration) that they are underpaid in terms of the international market. That should be good news for all pilots in our country because it should surely follow that it would be a cinch to prove you are underpaid if you are paid less than what SAA pilots are paid - get thee to the negotiating table I say.
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Originally Posted by Q4NVS
To clarify, I say one gets paid what one is worth (in context).
Sure, if all 737 drivers as an example, were worth R1.3 mil or whatever per crew, where does that leave the guys at CE for instance?
I understand that they did not negotiate for better and therefore have to take what they get, but hey, I'm willling to bet my last $ that if they were given the option, they would probably have those jobs than nothing at all..
My opinion (mayb it sounds a bit socialistic, but I assure you that is not my inclination): If one is worth so much more and is feeling hard done by it, why not go where one can get what one deserves. If you have to go overseas, then go.
Secondly (and this is what I am trying to say), if the company (whatever it may be, not necessarily only SAA), is making millions or billions, then surely one can get compensated through a proper Profit Share system. A proper system such as this, can easily double or triple one's annual income (I've been there..).
But, when things are going bad as they are, one sometimes has to keep the bigger picture in mind in order to maintain sustainability not only for oneselve but also for those to follow.
Wrt to the training aspect, it is expensive yes, but cannot be close to the Total Cost to Company, as affected trough huge salary packages.
All I say, as it is not really my business anyway, is that I would hate to see SAA go through a scenario where the company is simply shutdown and a month or two later reopened under another similar name, in order to rid itself of all these agreements etc. (aka Swiss Air versus Swiss).
NOTHING is impossible and NOBODY invincible, ask the guys at ENRON...
Sure, if all 737 drivers as an example, were worth R1.3 mil or whatever per crew, where does that leave the guys at CE for instance?
I understand that they did not negotiate for better and therefore have to take what they get, but hey, I'm willling to bet my last $ that if they were given the option, they would probably have those jobs than nothing at all..
My opinion (mayb it sounds a bit socialistic, but I assure you that is not my inclination): If one is worth so much more and is feeling hard done by it, why not go where one can get what one deserves. If you have to go overseas, then go.
Secondly (and this is what I am trying to say), if the company (whatever it may be, not necessarily only SAA), is making millions or billions, then surely one can get compensated through a proper Profit Share system. A proper system such as this, can easily double or triple one's annual income (I've been there..).
But, when things are going bad as they are, one sometimes has to keep the bigger picture in mind in order to maintain sustainability not only for oneselve but also for those to follow.
Wrt to the training aspect, it is expensive yes, but cannot be close to the Total Cost to Company, as affected trough huge salary packages.
All I say, as it is not really my business anyway, is that I would hate to see SAA go through a scenario where the company is simply shutdown and a month or two later reopened under another similar name, in order to rid itself of all these agreements etc. (aka Swiss Air versus Swiss).
NOTHING is impossible and NOBODY invincible, ask the guys at ENRON...
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Originally Posted by The Actuator
ERJ135 you say
"To clarify, I say one gets paid what one is worth (in context)."
You and I would have to disagree. Nobody gets paid what they are worth because that would involve subjective opinions. If it was the case our teachers and non corrupt policeman would get top dollar and politicians would get the least - no? You get paid what you negotiate - that's it.
Then you say
"If one is worth so much more and is feeling hard done by it, why not go where one can get what one deserves. If you have to go overseas, then go."
Nobody feels hard done by, I don't want to go overseas and no, again you won't get what you deserve. If profit share was what we agreed to then yes one would have to take ones medicine but this is not what was NEGOTIATED!
We are very much aware of the state of the company and the point I was making to you was that it is not the pilot's fault and so we ought to be compensated in the manner that our agreements say we should. None of these agreements are as onerous as the company would have the public believe and NONE of them were agreed to in isolation. For example if we have a free ticket available to us then it was negotiated in lieu of cash that was due, if we may use the business class lounge then it was negotiated in lieu of some or other benefit that was due etc etc.
If you scrap every agreement you have to revert to what was due (impossible to calculate but I would bet far more onerous).
Management must take responsibility for their actions - that is why they get the big cash when things go right but if your managerial skills are such that you cause a huge loss should you still be entitled to your bonus?
- If that's what you negotiated then yes . You cannot then come and cry that it is the pilot's salaries that are killing the company.
Deskjockey that is precisely my argument... if you have it in black and white... as we do. Now they blame us and our agreements for the state of the company, when what is required is leadership and management. The point about them paying back - we have been negotiating for 3 years now and have only taken minimal increases, whilst negotiating they have taken the normal bonuses (sp) and now cannot afford to pay what is due. Don't forget this is a company that "announced" an unheard of profit and turnaround last year, one year on and we are up the creek....smoke and mirrors me thinks
Thanks for the back up reptile.
"To clarify, I say one gets paid what one is worth (in context)."
You and I would have to disagree. Nobody gets paid what they are worth because that would involve subjective opinions. If it was the case our teachers and non corrupt policeman would get top dollar and politicians would get the least - no? You get paid what you negotiate - that's it.
Then you say
"If one is worth so much more and is feeling hard done by it, why not go where one can get what one deserves. If you have to go overseas, then go."
Nobody feels hard done by, I don't want to go overseas and no, again you won't get what you deserve. If profit share was what we agreed to then yes one would have to take ones medicine but this is not what was NEGOTIATED!
We are very much aware of the state of the company and the point I was making to you was that it is not the pilot's fault and so we ought to be compensated in the manner that our agreements say we should. None of these agreements are as onerous as the company would have the public believe and NONE of them were agreed to in isolation. For example if we have a free ticket available to us then it was negotiated in lieu of cash that was due, if we may use the business class lounge then it was negotiated in lieu of some or other benefit that was due etc etc.
If you scrap every agreement you have to revert to what was due (impossible to calculate but I would bet far more onerous).
Management must take responsibility for their actions - that is why they get the big cash when things go right but if your managerial skills are such that you cause a huge loss should you still be entitled to your bonus?
- If that's what you negotiated then yes . You cannot then come and cry that it is the pilot's salaries that are killing the company.
Deskjockey that is precisely my argument... if you have it in black and white... as we do. Now they blame us and our agreements for the state of the company, when what is required is leadership and management. The point about them paying back - we have been negotiating for 3 years now and have only taken minimal increases, whilst negotiating they have taken the normal bonuses (sp) and now cannot afford to pay what is due. Don't forget this is a company that "announced" an unheard of profit and turnaround last year, one year on and we are up the creek....smoke and mirrors me thinks
Thanks for the back up reptile.
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Originally Posted by T Hairy Henry
I think you'll find that it's not the pay that is going to be the issue. The main thing for SAA to get a grip of for its new LCC will be the productivity of the pilots.
easyJet and Ryanair pilots fly around 850 hours each year. Do you think you boys down south would be up for that?
easyJet and Ryanair pilots fly around 850 hours each year. Do you think you boys down south would be up for that?
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Originally Posted by GreenOnGo
Productivity is going to be a big issue in any airline these days. The days when a senior pilot could earn USD300000 pa and only fly one or two trips a month are fast passing. For the big bucks, companies are now increasingly expecting the big hours.
The market is competitive, for sure, so we all need to do our bit. However, when faced with management stuff ups and strategic messes, it is hard to feel enamoured when these same management boys stroll off with big bonuses.
For example, I'm sure many pilots would be happy to fly more hours than they are at the moment, but are less inclined to spend that extra time deadheading around unproductively because management can't get its ducks in a row and put the pilots rated on a particular aircraft in the correct base for that aircraft.
The market is competitive, for sure, so we all need to do our bit. However, when faced with management stuff ups and strategic messes, it is hard to feel enamoured when these same management boys stroll off with big bonuses.
For example, I'm sure many pilots would be happy to fly more hours than they are at the moment, but are less inclined to spend that extra time deadheading around unproductively because management can't get its ducks in a row and put the pilots rated on a particular aircraft in the correct base for that aircraft.
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Quick update:
1) SAX will not be a part of the LCC
2) 35 crews will be used to launch
3) LCC will definately operate under a new AOC
4) New AOC not issued yet, but crews from Comair have already beeen contacted to as part of a recruitment drive.
CE might be in a lot of trouble here - pilots are low paid and have 737 experience. If not enough can be attracted from Comair during the next few weeks, the new company will turn to CE for crew.
1) SAX will not be a part of the LCC
2) 35 crews will be used to launch
3) LCC will definately operate under a new AOC
4) New AOC not issued yet, but crews from Comair have already beeen contacted to as part of a recruitment drive.
CE might be in a lot of trouble here - pilots are low paid and have 737 experience. If not enough can be attracted from Comair during the next few weeks, the new company will turn to CE for crew.
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I for one, would laugh very, very hard if CE's low pay policy bit them hard in the ass. I love watching short sighted non-pilot management types scramble for crew due to problems of their own making. Oh well, one can but hope... 
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Quote:
CE might be in a lot of trouble here - pilots are low paid and have 737 experience. If not enough can be attracted from Comair during the next few weeks, the new company will turn to CE for crew.
Its wake-up time guys : I just want to advise you that there are over 50-100 pilots (with lots of expeience) around the world (Middle East, UK, etc) that will be coming home to fly for the LCC. Nationwide will not be affected. The SAA guys, due to their cost will be the losers here. Take a look at what's happening in Australia, where infact there is more union regulation than SA, in order to compete Qantas have started Jet* and are now looking for 330 crews to expand their regional/long haul routes - it's a changing market !!
CE might be in a lot of trouble here - pilots are low paid and have 737 experience. If not enough can be attracted from Comair during the next few weeks, the new company will turn to CE for crew.
Its wake-up time guys : I just want to advise you that there are over 50-100 pilots (with lots of expeience) around the world (Middle East, UK, etc) that will be coming home to fly for the LCC. Nationwide will not be affected. The SAA guys, due to their cost will be the losers here. Take a look at what's happening in Australia, where infact there is more union regulation than SA, in order to compete Qantas have started Jet* and are now looking for 330 crews to expand their regional/long haul routes - it's a changing market !!
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Reptile....
As far as I know Comair has not been approached by SAA for crew in connection with the LCC so don't know where you get the info but enlighten us if you will.
They can't afford to lose crew at this stage as there are many walking out the door towards sandy pastures at the moment!!!!
As far as I know Comair has not been approached by SAA for crew in connection with the LCC so don't know where you get the info but enlighten us if you will.
They can't afford to lose crew at this stage as there are many walking out the door towards sandy pastures at the moment!!!!
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Originally Posted by beechbum
Reptile....
As far as I know Comair has not been approached by SAA for crew...
As far as I know Comair has not been approached by SAA for crew...
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Originally Posted by reptile
They have not approached Comair (the company). They are phoning individual drivers at Comair....and have been doing so for the last 5 days.