CAA fails FAA inspection ??????
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Jamielee – take it your home language isn’t English
Hope it’s a leg pull
The “Air Regs” are NOT guidelines – they are the LAW.
“one can just do so much” – I’m sure the FAA / EASA / ICAO will reduce the criteria based on this argument – of course that will upset all those Authorities who are Compliant.
It is though the perfect post to demonstrate the “African attitude” – “we are trying to do it right – but it’s a bit hard – lets change it to make it easier – if you won’t let us maybe the race card will”
Hope it’s a leg pull
The “Air Regs” are NOT guidelines – they are the LAW.
“one can just do so much” – I’m sure the FAA / EASA / ICAO will reduce the criteria based on this argument – of course that will upset all those Authorities who are Compliant.
It is though the perfect post to demonstrate the “African attitude” – “we are trying to do it right – but it’s a bit hard – lets change it to make it easier – if you won’t let us maybe the race card will”
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Several countries are classified by the FAA as not meeting ICAO standards, but their airlines are allowed to continue operations to the US (though not to increase frequency) - eg. Aerolineas Argentinas still operates there daily.
Or is this not the same audit that South Africa failed?
Full list of country classifications:
http://www.faa.gov/safety/programs_i...dia/iasaws.xls
Or is this not the same audit that South Africa failed?
Full list of country classifications:
http://www.faa.gov/safety/programs_i...dia/iasaws.xls
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From the FAA site
When CAA's of countries with existing air carrier service to the U.S. are found to not meet ICAO standards, the FAA formally requests consultations with the CAA. The purpose of consultations is to discuss our findings in some detail and explore means to quickly rectify shortcomings found with regard to ICAO annexes, to enable its air carriers to continue service to the United States. During the consultation phase, foreign air carrier operations from that country into the United States will be frozen at existing levels.
This policy is defined in a notice published in the Federal Register (Volume 60, No. 210, October 31, 1995). FAA may also heighten its surveillance inspections (ramp checks) on these carriers while they are in the United States. If the deficiencies noted during consultations cannot be successfully corrected within a reasonable, period of time, FAA will notify DOT that carriers from that country do not have an acceptable level of safety oversight and will recommend that DOT revoke or suspend its carriers economic operating authority.
It's the second paragraph and the lack of definition of time for the Consultation Phase that determines things
When CAA's of countries with existing air carrier service to the U.S. are found to not meet ICAO standards, the FAA formally requests consultations with the CAA. The purpose of consultations is to discuss our findings in some detail and explore means to quickly rectify shortcomings found with regard to ICAO annexes, to enable its air carriers to continue service to the United States. During the consultation phase, foreign air carrier operations from that country into the United States will be frozen at existing levels.
This policy is defined in a notice published in the Federal Register (Volume 60, No. 210, October 31, 1995). FAA may also heighten its surveillance inspections (ramp checks) on these carriers while they are in the United States. If the deficiencies noted during consultations cannot be successfully corrected within a reasonable, period of time, FAA will notify DOT that carriers from that country do not have an acceptable level of safety oversight and will recommend that DOT revoke or suspend its carriers economic operating authority.
It's the second paragraph and the lack of definition of time for the Consultation Phase that determines things
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This is being talked about in Rumours - that led me to the FAA site where I found :-
“When CAA's of countries with existing air carrier service to the U.S. are found to not meet ICAO standards, the FAA formally requests consultations with the CAA. The purpose of consultations is to discuss our findings in some detail and explore means to quickly rectify shortcomings found with regard to ICAO annexes, to enable its air carriers to continue service to the United States. During the consultation phase, foreign air carrier operations from that country into the United States will be frozen at existing levels.
This policy is defined in a notice published in the Federal Register (Volume 60, No. 210, October 31, 1995). FAA may also heighten its surveillance inspections (ramp checks) on these carriers while they are in the United States. If the deficiencies noted during consultations cannot be successfully corrected within a reasonable, period of time, FAA will notify DOT that carriers from that country do not have an acceptable level of safety oversight and will recommend that DOT revoke or suspend its carriers economic operating authority.”
So if the SACAA fail the next audit SAA will NOT be automatically banned from the US – but they won’t be able to increase flights.
The ban won’t happen until a “reasonable period” after “consultation” – reasonable period doesn’t seem to be defined - so maybe jamilee’s “the CAA are working hard to please industry – but one can only do so much” argument might win a LONG reasonable period – NOT.
Note – it’s the DoT that gets the final say – not the FAA
“When CAA's of countries with existing air carrier service to the U.S. are found to not meet ICAO standards, the FAA formally requests consultations with the CAA. The purpose of consultations is to discuss our findings in some detail and explore means to quickly rectify shortcomings found with regard to ICAO annexes, to enable its air carriers to continue service to the United States. During the consultation phase, foreign air carrier operations from that country into the United States will be frozen at existing levels.
This policy is defined in a notice published in the Federal Register (Volume 60, No. 210, October 31, 1995). FAA may also heighten its surveillance inspections (ramp checks) on these carriers while they are in the United States. If the deficiencies noted during consultations cannot be successfully corrected within a reasonable, period of time, FAA will notify DOT that carriers from that country do not have an acceptable level of safety oversight and will recommend that DOT revoke or suspend its carriers economic operating authority.”
So if the SACAA fail the next audit SAA will NOT be automatically banned from the US – but they won’t be able to increase flights.
The ban won’t happen until a “reasonable period” after “consultation” – reasonable period doesn’t seem to be defined - so maybe jamilee’s “the CAA are working hard to please industry – but one can only do so much” argument might win a LONG reasonable period – NOT.
Note – it’s the DoT that gets the final say – not the FAA
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ATR,
That's interesting. So lets see if I've got this straight. The FAA will initally put recommendations to the CAA on how they can improve standards. If this is not complied with, the FAA will refer them to DoT so in the end the FAA is not the one to ban a certain carrier. If these issues were a concern with the FAA surely in the end DoT will side with the FAA.
Jamie, I rate your just trying to wind us up......... sorry no such luck.........
That's interesting. So lets see if I've got this straight. The FAA will initally put recommendations to the CAA on how they can improve standards. If this is not complied with, the FAA will refer them to DoT so in the end the FAA is not the one to ban a certain carrier. If these issues were a concern with the FAA surely in the end DoT will side with the FAA.
Jamie, I rate your just trying to wind us up......... sorry no such luck.........
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Hi Birdlady
My reading is that the FAA would tell the CAA “this is where your failing” and then hold talks aimed at correcting the failing – if the FAA like you they can help and advise, if they don’t they talks would most likely be “well what you doing about it?”.
I have dealt with FAA (not on this subject) and always found them to be helpful – IF APPROACHED THE RIGHT WAY – “Eish Boss it’s hard” or “we are now a democracy – go away” it NOT the way to go.
Imagine the FAA telling the DoT “country x have unsafe planes”, the Dot doing nothing until a incident (not necessarily a crash) – FAA say “hey we told the DoT”.
We are into International Politics here but I think the DoT would need the President to sign a “get out of jail free card” in blood before they chose not to act on the FAA report.
A “by the side thought” – it would be interesting to know the colour makeup of the FAA team – predominately negro (can we still use this word ?) would indicate a different attitude than predominately white.
PS
Story – working on USAF base, warned about “politically correct”, one US guy (officer) black, everyone walking on eggshells during day, see him in club in night - “having fun?” asked – answer “yo man this nigger got to boggie down” – two days latter asked by white woman why we called him “pigeon” – answer cause when he walks passed them they say “look at the coon – look at the coon” (it needs an accent) – less than 10min later whole team in office having “racist” explained to them.
Saved by him coming in asking what the “honkeys” had done wrong and then explaining HE told us the joke.
Moderator – close I know but is it a racist remark if a black guy calls himself a “nigger” or an Afrikaans guy calls himself “Dutchman” ?
You tell me bubba. I'm tired of keeping our sensitive members happy & the n-word typically generates a flood of angry demands for my intervention. Personally, I think it's cool for a black dude to call himself whatever & an Afrikaans kerel to do the same but I do not condone it when one party calls the other by that same name. It all comes down to what I've posted here before; the owners of this site & I have no concern as to what color your skin is, what your religion is or what your particular persuasions are. We ask only that you respect others on this site with the same courtesy as you would wish to be treated. Nuff said. 4HP
My reading is that the FAA would tell the CAA “this is where your failing” and then hold talks aimed at correcting the failing – if the FAA like you they can help and advise, if they don’t they talks would most likely be “well what you doing about it?”.
I have dealt with FAA (not on this subject) and always found them to be helpful – IF APPROACHED THE RIGHT WAY – “Eish Boss it’s hard” or “we are now a democracy – go away” it NOT the way to go.
Imagine the FAA telling the DoT “country x have unsafe planes”, the Dot doing nothing until a incident (not necessarily a crash) – FAA say “hey we told the DoT”.
We are into International Politics here but I think the DoT would need the President to sign a “get out of jail free card” in blood before they chose not to act on the FAA report.
A “by the side thought” – it would be interesting to know the colour makeup of the FAA team – predominately negro (can we still use this word ?) would indicate a different attitude than predominately white.
PS
Story – working on USAF base, warned about “politically correct”, one US guy (officer) black, everyone walking on eggshells during day, see him in club in night - “having fun?” asked – answer “yo man this nigger got to boggie down” – two days latter asked by white woman why we called him “pigeon” – answer cause when he walks passed them they say “look at the coon – look at the coon” (it needs an accent) – less than 10min later whole team in office having “racist” explained to them.
Saved by him coming in asking what the “honkeys” had done wrong and then explaining HE told us the joke.
Moderator – close I know but is it a racist remark if a black guy calls himself a “nigger” or an Afrikaans guy calls himself “Dutchman” ?
You tell me bubba. I'm tired of keeping our sensitive members happy & the n-word typically generates a flood of angry demands for my intervention. Personally, I think it's cool for a black dude to call himself whatever & an Afrikaans kerel to do the same but I do not condone it when one party calls the other by that same name. It all comes down to what I've posted here before; the owners of this site & I have no concern as to what color your skin is, what your religion is or what your particular persuasions are. We ask only that you respect others on this site with the same courtesy as you would wish to be treated. Nuff said. 4HP
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 21st Sep 2005 at 21:12.
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On a recent trip to the USA for recurrency training, I had the pleasure of meeting some "black American" Marine Pilots doing type ratings to a GV at a well known school down in Florida. I had interesting conversations and times with them, and could after a few days, draw the following conclusions:
1. Those boys are educated, razor sharp and adapt. They also take their flying very seriously, and they excell at what they do.
2. That there is a huge difference between the "American" boys and our boys here in Africa. Somehow we lack either the facilities, education, or simply we are not exposed to the kind of modern society & facilities these boys grow up in.
3. One informed me that America's "black" popolation makes up only 10 to 12% of the entire populaqtion, which is interesting, if correct.
4. From that, one can conclude that the standard of the small population of "black American's (Lifestyle, education whatever)are actually "raised" to a level where they're actually on par with most white Americans, which is of course what we're all striving for here in Africa. (A better life for all, basic primary health care and at least one good meal a day.)
That brings me to the posting of ATR.
The FAA is representative of its population. Therefore you will find a lot of Spanish speaking (some Hispanics by birth) FAA Officials at the Flight Standards District Offices in Florida, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, California etc, due to the large population of Hispanics in those regions.
In Michigan, Detroit, Kansas etc, you will find a fair amount of very highly skilled Black FAA Inspectors.
The FAA are headquartered in Oklahoma City, but the Administrator is based in Washington. In all my dealings with the FAA on airline, multilateral and co-operative agreements, I can with confidence say that the "teams" were always broadly represented, that race, religion or whatever, did not play a role at all, and that the decisions taken by the delegates, were that of unity, based on logic and aviation safety, and they also made a lot of sense.
South Africa is a new democracy, or I should rather say a "reasonably new democracy". The American Goverment are sending people to SA representative of their own population, and this is a common occurrence in Africa. Send Africans to Africa. We see it in Ambassadors, High Commissioners and diplomats generally here at home. These people are skilled and suitably schooled in their vocation, and their intelligence should not be under estimated.
The FAA team that visited with the SACAA, were "representative", so it was'nt a case of " white hitting on black" or vice versa. The purpose of that meeting had only one agenda, Aviation Safety.
I agree that there are probably a couple of black people at the SACAA that are pulling their weight, and are trying hard to make a difference. A difference will however not be noted or achieved, unless ALL the employees at the SACAA pull their respective weights.
It is true that aviation is a new environment for a lot of black youngsters, as it was previously only for the white elite due to costs, but governments are spending money on these youngsters, trying to educate them in aviation, but it will take time for them to understand fully what its all about, and what is required
Governments biggest headaches are trying to change the mind set. The fact that an airplane is not a "taxi" that can pull over to the side of the road when the wheel falls off due to complete bearing failure. Thats the issue.
So yes, some out there are trying, but as ATR said, the law is the law and not a guideline. Africans in general, are used to breaking laws, not because they want to, but due to shortcomings of many natures, lack of resources, and others, and therefore are used to pushing the envelope a bit from time to time.
Example: Chief Ground Engineer knows that the tyres on the 737 going to JHB should be changed, but eesch, "we are very short of spares". Let it go one more time, and we'll change it when the airplane comes back" sort of scenario. Problem is, its not safe, regulations are violated, tyres bursts at JHB on landing, airplane leaves runway, substantial damaged caused and minor injuries on board. Not right! Should'nt have happened, but these are the sort of examples that are everyday occurrences in Africa and some Airlines. The laws are broken due to the hundreds of shortcomings that are plagueing Africa. No money, always NO money! We have NO money!
So people of sunny SA, and employees of the SACAA, see your time there as a learning curve in many ways, try to learn from the experienced, be diligent, be observant, and DON'T discriminate. Most of your white peers are there to help you, because they HAVE the experience! Listen, take note and forget what "white colonialism" did to Africa.
Got a job for me? 
1. Those boys are educated, razor sharp and adapt. They also take their flying very seriously, and they excell at what they do.
2. That there is a huge difference between the "American" boys and our boys here in Africa. Somehow we lack either the facilities, education, or simply we are not exposed to the kind of modern society & facilities these boys grow up in.
3. One informed me that America's "black" popolation makes up only 10 to 12% of the entire populaqtion, which is interesting, if correct.
4. From that, one can conclude that the standard of the small population of "black American's (Lifestyle, education whatever)are actually "raised" to a level where they're actually on par with most white Americans, which is of course what we're all striving for here in Africa. (A better life for all, basic primary health care and at least one good meal a day.)
That brings me to the posting of ATR.
The FAA is representative of its population. Therefore you will find a lot of Spanish speaking (some Hispanics by birth) FAA Officials at the Flight Standards District Offices in Florida, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, California etc, due to the large population of Hispanics in those regions.
In Michigan, Detroit, Kansas etc, you will find a fair amount of very highly skilled Black FAA Inspectors.
The FAA are headquartered in Oklahoma City, but the Administrator is based in Washington. In all my dealings with the FAA on airline, multilateral and co-operative agreements, I can with confidence say that the "teams" were always broadly represented, that race, religion or whatever, did not play a role at all, and that the decisions taken by the delegates, were that of unity, based on logic and aviation safety, and they also made a lot of sense.
South Africa is a new democracy, or I should rather say a "reasonably new democracy". The American Goverment are sending people to SA representative of their own population, and this is a common occurrence in Africa. Send Africans to Africa. We see it in Ambassadors, High Commissioners and diplomats generally here at home. These people are skilled and suitably schooled in their vocation, and their intelligence should not be under estimated.
The FAA team that visited with the SACAA, were "representative", so it was'nt a case of " white hitting on black" or vice versa. The purpose of that meeting had only one agenda, Aviation Safety.
I agree that there are probably a couple of black people at the SACAA that are pulling their weight, and are trying hard to make a difference. A difference will however not be noted or achieved, unless ALL the employees at the SACAA pull their respective weights.
It is true that aviation is a new environment for a lot of black youngsters, as it was previously only for the white elite due to costs, but governments are spending money on these youngsters, trying to educate them in aviation, but it will take time for them to understand fully what its all about, and what is required
Governments biggest headaches are trying to change the mind set. The fact that an airplane is not a "taxi" that can pull over to the side of the road when the wheel falls off due to complete bearing failure. Thats the issue.
So yes, some out there are trying, but as ATR said, the law is the law and not a guideline. Africans in general, are used to breaking laws, not because they want to, but due to shortcomings of many natures, lack of resources, and others, and therefore are used to pushing the envelope a bit from time to time.
Example: Chief Ground Engineer knows that the tyres on the 737 going to JHB should be changed, but eesch, "we are very short of spares". Let it go one more time, and we'll change it when the airplane comes back" sort of scenario. Problem is, its not safe, regulations are violated, tyres bursts at JHB on landing, airplane leaves runway, substantial damaged caused and minor injuries on board. Not right! Should'nt have happened, but these are the sort of examples that are everyday occurrences in Africa and some Airlines. The laws are broken due to the hundreds of shortcomings that are plagueing Africa. No money, always NO money! We have NO money!
So people of sunny SA, and employees of the SACAA, see your time there as a learning curve in many ways, try to learn from the experienced, be diligent, be observant, and DON'T discriminate. Most of your white peers are there to help you, because they HAVE the experience! Listen, take note and forget what "white colonialism" did to Africa.
Got a job for me?
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At the risk of hijacking this thread - not something I want to do as it’s an interesting important subject – having read Josh’s I felt maybe a bit of clarification was needed.
I agree the FAA as a whole is representative of the US population.
I am not “knocking” the ability of any FAA inspector – regardless of race – because :-
1 – It would be wrong – in general they a good at what they do and as I said helpful if approached the right way.
2 – I hold an A&P and am not stupid enough to insult the issuing authority
BUT should the FAA chose to send a team made up predominately of a certain race it would be a “message” – they will be cognisant of possible political implications of downgrade of SA so it would make sense and SHOULD be a factor they take into account in choosing the team – if they chose to send a predominately white team the SA Government will in most likelihood comment on this making it LOOK like there were racist overtones AND the reaction of the SACAA will be different to that if they send a predominately Black team.
A predominantly black team would be a message that the race card has been taken away, that the issue is important and has nothing to do with race and would [I belive] be taken by the SACAA as a “better” sign than a white team.
I REALLY HOPE no White or Hispanic etc is on the team sent – it would be a terrible shame for this issue to be clouded by “the race card”.
The problem [I belive] is that SA Govt and SACAA are discriminating – they HAD a good CAA, respected and functional but rather than phase in more blacks and coloureds they chose to replace the experienced whites as fast as possible under the guise of Affirmative Action – what they did wasn’t AA it was pure discrimination.
The culture here is vastly different to the US or UK – here they seem to have a “me first – next my tribe (Zulu, Xhosa, Afrikaans, etc) – get as much as we can – do as little as possible - if things go wrong blame the other race, although possibly the biggest difference is attitude to corruption, UK & US take this very seriously SA (and much of Africa) treat it as an expected part of life.
Since coming here I have been surprised just how well educated some SA blacks are (not all – but some) – but too often that education is used purely to enrich themselves rather than improve the lot of all.
In many African countries money is a big problem – SA does NOT have this problem – it does have the problem that the politicians would prefer to give money to Zim than spend it on their own infrastructure and where they do spend it on infrastructure the contracts often seem to go a relative / friend who set up a company yesterday and has no knowledge of the task.
In fact I think you’ll find that many African countries don’t have real money problems, some do, but in many if not most the money is there but the “me first” culture means the intelligent get it and they sure as hell don’t want to educate / make life better for the masses cause then the masses will want some of the money.
Josh – I think we agree on many points but as I don’t know you feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Hope we now see more postings about the CAA Chiefs idea.
I agree the FAA as a whole is representative of the US population.
I am not “knocking” the ability of any FAA inspector – regardless of race – because :-
1 – It would be wrong – in general they a good at what they do and as I said helpful if approached the right way.
2 – I hold an A&P and am not stupid enough to insult the issuing authority
BUT should the FAA chose to send a team made up predominately of a certain race it would be a “message” – they will be cognisant of possible political implications of downgrade of SA so it would make sense and SHOULD be a factor they take into account in choosing the team – if they chose to send a predominately white team the SA Government will in most likelihood comment on this making it LOOK like there were racist overtones AND the reaction of the SACAA will be different to that if they send a predominately Black team.
A predominantly black team would be a message that the race card has been taken away, that the issue is important and has nothing to do with race and would [I belive] be taken by the SACAA as a “better” sign than a white team.
I REALLY HOPE no White or Hispanic etc is on the team sent – it would be a terrible shame for this issue to be clouded by “the race card”.
The problem [I belive] is that SA Govt and SACAA are discriminating – they HAD a good CAA, respected and functional but rather than phase in more blacks and coloureds they chose to replace the experienced whites as fast as possible under the guise of Affirmative Action – what they did wasn’t AA it was pure discrimination.
The culture here is vastly different to the US or UK – here they seem to have a “me first – next my tribe (Zulu, Xhosa, Afrikaans, etc) – get as much as we can – do as little as possible - if things go wrong blame the other race, although possibly the biggest difference is attitude to corruption, UK & US take this very seriously SA (and much of Africa) treat it as an expected part of life.
Since coming here I have been surprised just how well educated some SA blacks are (not all – but some) – but too often that education is used purely to enrich themselves rather than improve the lot of all.
In many African countries money is a big problem – SA does NOT have this problem – it does have the problem that the politicians would prefer to give money to Zim than spend it on their own infrastructure and where they do spend it on infrastructure the contracts often seem to go a relative / friend who set up a company yesterday and has no knowledge of the task.
In fact I think you’ll find that many African countries don’t have real money problems, some do, but in many if not most the money is there but the “me first” culture means the intelligent get it and they sure as hell don’t want to educate / make life better for the masses cause then the masses will want some of the money.
Josh – I think we agree on many points but as I don’t know you feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Hope we now see more postings about the CAA Chiefs idea.
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ATR
By sending an inspection team containing no white faces, the race card would be played to pander to racist perceptions by those being inspected. Sending a standard mixed team would be the best move in my opinion. No selection on grounds of race should be allowed. Any bleating about it by SACAA/govt should be construed as racist.
By sending an inspection team containing no white faces, the race card would be played to pander to racist perceptions by those being inspected. Sending a standard mixed team would be the best move in my opinion. No selection on grounds of race should be allowed. Any bleating about it by SACAA/govt should be construed as racist.
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With the way the inept officials of CAA are (mis) handling things I trust that we will fly one of these days to most European and American destinations via Africa & South America That is to get on a connecting flight with a first world carrier
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SRT
Good point – wish I thought it would work
Unfortunately a team picked without regard to race will give the lobbyist / ex anti- apartheid people ammunition to spin.
Not sure where Tharg is – but do know many people in Europe / States etc who have difficulty comprehending racism works both ways – ie SA Govt cannot [in their eyes] be racist.
I’ve been there – found serious deficiencies when auditing airline in country x – reaction to my findings from airline “findings not serious – he exaggerates because he doesn’t like country x” – LOTS of arguments – VERY clouded issue.
Next audit carried out by someone of decent from country x – same findings – less clouds.
Take the ammo away first – if team black no racism card to play – next card probably “the US don’t like that SAA bought Airbus – this is revenge”.
I know it’s sad and wrong – but more time and effort will be spent arguing the FAA is wrong / have an ulterior motive than will be spent trying to fix the problem.
Good point – wish I thought it would work
Unfortunately a team picked without regard to race will give the lobbyist / ex anti- apartheid people ammunition to spin.
Not sure where Tharg is – but do know many people in Europe / States etc who have difficulty comprehending racism works both ways – ie SA Govt cannot [in their eyes] be racist.
I’ve been there – found serious deficiencies when auditing airline in country x – reaction to my findings from airline “findings not serious – he exaggerates because he doesn’t like country x” – LOTS of arguments – VERY clouded issue.
Next audit carried out by someone of decent from country x – same findings – less clouds.
Take the ammo away first – if team black no racism card to play – next card probably “the US don’t like that SAA bought Airbus – this is revenge”.
I know it’s sad and wrong – but more time and effort will be spent arguing the FAA is wrong / have an ulterior motive than will be spent trying to fix the problem.
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ATR
Thanks for clearing that up
Josh - I couldnt agree with you more.
SRT - I can see your point. By pandering to these officials we are allowing them to get away with inefficiency by playing the race card. This is unacceptable. I can also see ATR's point.
I reckon a lot of the problems at the CAA are to do with pride more than racism (although this does definately factor into things). Pride meaning that CAA officals are not willing to admit that there is a problem. They want to prove to the rest of the world that they can actually do it themselves and are not willing to admit that they possibly cant to themselves. Their in self denial - thats what I say. Am I making any sense?????
Thanks for clearing that up
Josh - I couldnt agree with you more.
SRT - I can see your point. By pandering to these officials we are allowing them to get away with inefficiency by playing the race card. This is unacceptable. I can also see ATR's point.
I reckon a lot of the problems at the CAA are to do with pride more than racism (although this does definately factor into things). Pride meaning that CAA officals are not willing to admit that there is a problem. They want to prove to the rest of the world that they can actually do it themselves and are not willing to admit that they possibly cant to themselves. Their in self denial - thats what I say. Am I making any sense?????
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BUT should the FAA chose to send a team made up predominately of a certain race it would be a “message” – they will be cognisant of possible political implications of downgrade of SA so it would make sense and SHOULD be a factor they take into account in choosing the team – if they chose to send a predominately white team the SA Government will in most likelihood comment on this making it LOOK like there were racist overtones AND the reaction of the SACAA will be different to that if they send a predominately Black team.
I dont think we would be having this discussion had the "transition" to a new Government taken a bit longer allowing time to educate those who were to take positions which required education and some experience. I have met a few of the new guys, they are not all stupid, they just dont have those years on the job as others had.
In the U.S. we also have Affirmitive Action and it brings along its share of morons, but for the most part it works OK. Josh was talking about Marine Pilots. The Navy and the Marine Corps, in my view, have the best Pilots in the world. Not any room for tagalongs or co-pilots. They wear Gold Wings, I dont care what their color, they were not handed those things they earned them.
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Birdlady – yes (making sense) – it’s sort of mixed up – racism shown by the way they got rid of and won’t get any more whites, pride and self denial in that they won’t admit there’s a problem, back to racism cause if they admit there’s a problem they’d have to get whites in to help fix it (I know of no “all black” CAA that is widely respected).
B Sousa – true – both that the yanks are scared sh**less of being called racist, hence card 1 for SA and that the transition was (is) being done too quickly (although I wasn’t here at the start of it – so corrections allowed).
AA in SA seems different to AA in the US – here it seems to be “sweeping whites out” as quick as you can and get a black in REGARDLESS of qualifications – in the US I belive it was more if they have similar qualification get the AA one, although again not been there for a while so corrections allowed.
I agree gold wing are earned not handed out – but not sure about “best pilots in world”, but realise Yanks need to BELIVE biggest & best is theirs.
B Sousa – true – both that the yanks are scared sh**less of being called racist, hence card 1 for SA and that the transition was (is) being done too quickly (although I wasn’t here at the start of it – so corrections allowed).
AA in SA seems different to AA in the US – here it seems to be “sweeping whites out” as quick as you can and get a black in REGARDLESS of qualifications – in the US I belive it was more if they have similar qualification get the AA one, although again not been there for a while so corrections allowed.
I agree gold wing are earned not handed out – but not sure about “best pilots in world”, but realise Yanks need to BELIVE biggest & best is theirs.
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I find it interesting to note that it is always joe citizen who gets the short straw when it comes to BEE.
BEE is pushed down our throats faster than I can down a beer.My question - is the cockpit of South Africa's own Airfarce One BEE compliant? I doubt it !!!!
BEE is pushed down our throats faster than I can down a beer.My question - is the cockpit of South Africa's own Airfarce One BEE compliant? I doubt it !!!!