EC120 Rolls in Durban

[You've Got]

Food for thought

Guess by now a good few have read the contents of teh information letter and the Training Document.

Interesting to note that the training doc was first published in Oct 2001. Now surely if this is the case and the CAA has a rep that is a factory approved instructor he would/should know of this document and should have seen it and know and understand its importance.

So having punished the three naughty Durban boys for not knowing enough about fenestron behaviour and the punishement being meted out "in the interests of public safety", and as such requiring that the three get a letter from ESA indicaitng that they have done the prerequisite training to be safe and competent, he as the CAA rep should have ensured that this document be disemmenated into the industry. This may well have prevented the accident.

So again, this begs the question of accountability. The CAA must surely be somewhat accountable if they knew the info existed, had a close relationship with the manufacturer unyet did zlich to get the info into the industry.

Me thinks this doc was there a long time ago and no one even bothered.....

[Sir Cumference]

I understand that the 'arrogant ESA' man has resigned!? Him and his close 'buddy' have 'moved on.

The letter sent out on a ESA letterhead (by the two who subsequently resigned) was so flawed I think that their lawyers are going to be doing some urgent consulting! All quiet from the SACAA?

[SANAE1249]

I am amazed at the fact that the "Clipboards" and You got It" continues to harper on the hidden dangers of the dreaded fenestron. I was fortunate enough to do a factory conversion at Marignane in 2000. Guess what? They did not think it was neccesary to highlight the "dangers" of the fenestron. I don't know why the training notes was sent out in 2001, but I am sure it was not the result of numerous loss of control crashes all over the world, involving fenstron equipped EC machines. I have flown the EC120 for over 2300 hrs to the limits of my nerve. I have asked a lot from the machine and allways got a predicted response back. I did this without the knowledge of the "dangers" of fenestrons, but with the knowledge of what is written in the FM and what was taught to me. In all that time I was never bitten by the aircraft.

BSousa and other have made very valid points with regards to FM etc. It would seem as if certain gentleman cannot accept the fact that they acted outside their considerable lack of knowledge of the machine and rather acted out their "if it has rotors I can fly it " attitiude.

Lay off the manufacturer and CAA and spend some time on introspection. It goes something like " I suppose I don't know everything and have made a mistake".

[You've Got]

Why so twitchy

Sanae1249

Why so twitchy.

No one said the fenestron is bad. If you read the info letter and the booklet (again - presume with your experience on the machine you got it straight from ESA) you will note that my comments above have nothing to do with the guy possibly not knowing what he was doing. My comments were plain, simple and clear - a badly worded letter and a question as to why the CAA did not put the booklet out after it was published and are using the "lack of knowledge" that the guys had to punish them - simple enough. Then also the question of what is "in the interests of public safety" - surely flying pax around is more public than doing a base check or some guys conversion.

Give the guy who had the accident a call - he will not pull attitude about knowing everything. On the contrary disucssions with him reveal that he will be the first to admit publicly that he got bitten, but does not want others to get bitten. Isn't that what its all about - making the whole industry safer. He has on more than one occasion asked questions to try get answers.

We all want answers - after all, that is what will allow us to sit on a stoep at the age of 60, enjoy the golden nectar and tell the grand kids what we did and how we got home in the evenings but sometimes had to change undies before getting to the diningroom!!

[canthover]

Fenestron Dangers - What dangers

Page 12 of the booklet says -

"When the rate of turn accelerates - correct immediately - Don't let it run away on you !"

Now Sanae1249 - in your opinion would you not think there is a reason why the manufacturer puts a statement in like that. My guess is - it will hurt you if it does get away.

You say the guys at the factory thought it not necessary???

There is an abundance of information on the 16 Gazelle's that were lost in the British Army - reason - it got away from them. Sure, they are different machines but there is a common thread and there is a simple solution - Knowledge/information/information flow = SAFETY!!!!!!!

Surely if everyone in the industry - even the inexperienced, had the info that was published in 2001, then this accident may not have happened.

Simple - do what Frank R does - publish safety notices (I did not say flare at 70 feet and leave the rest to chance). Not everyone has the privilege of getting to the factory - so in SA pilots cannot be blamed as there is not an abundance of cash.

Me thinks this thread has been beaten to pieces and is now tired!!!!

[goaround7]

and now...

...if you don't have 150 hours on type you have to go for a three month check flight with the insurance company's designated pilot ! As if confidence in this aircraft wasn't at an all time low, now even a high time turbine driver can't be trusted with a little EC120 until 150 hours on type ! Just say much for the helicopter's design, does it ?!

Apparently this requirement for 'just a couple of circuits' is knee jerk reaction to the overtemp by Kruger Park boys. Why not just a couple of starts then ? What are you going to achieve in a couple of circuits except cost everyone money (although check pilot is free, except for cost of taking machine to him wherever he is).

No wonder everyone is quitting Eurocopter - marketing nightmare ! Why, oh why, didn't they just build a mini Squirrel ?!!!!!!!!!!

[B Sousa]

Go Around 7 writes:"No wonder everyone is quitting Eurocopter - marketing nightmare ! Why, oh why, didn't they just build a mini Squirrel ?!!!!!!!!!!"

Im not going to win any friends with my comments but Im used to it........
I dont think there is anything wrong with Eurocopter. As to sales they are doing quite well. In fact I think its one of the best Smaller Helicopters out there today. Others have their good points such as the MD500 being a great aircraft for sling and tight spots. Bell 407 and the L series for Transportation. But all around I have found Eurocopter to be very reliable and pretty much bullet proof for Pilot mistreatment.... Yes Pilots do nice things like that. One of the reasons for FADEC.. Over Temps, Over Torques etc.. AND dont mention it to the next guy who goes out to fly, let alone risk putting it in the log book... That is a worldwide problem, not isolated to Africa..
The EC120 and for the most part EC130 are new to the market. The secret says "Never fly an A Model of Anything" and that applies here. Maybe it should say "Never buy and A model as you will be the test bed for those folks who buy the next model off the line." Also why they call it the EC120B, to make you think the A is done ha ha.
Having flown over in that part of the country, what I do see is a lack of recurrent training for Pilots. "Good Old Boy" checkrides dont cut the mustard when safety is an issue. That I believe may be one key to problems. Im not talking of the majors, as I have not been involved there. This applies to small operators who run a tight budget.
I also see a CAA that is fading into history.. Those who are there to do something worthwhile are so overloaded that its impossible to get the proper things done. Also technology passing them by, still doing paperwork that requires archival systems that get lost and a mail system that would choke a horse with lack of repsonse and non-accountability.
Maintenance wont get by without a whipping either. I have seen things done to fix a problem, then when the problem is not fixed, something else done and so on. Tells me that those working on the aircraft may not be all that sharp and correct problems by luck and an owners deep pocket versus having a good knowledge of the aircraft.
So all this technical stuff on a thread, where by now the parties mentioned have grown old and retired; is not going to help much, but it does give some a chance for conversation.
Back to the Bunker..........Awaiting Incoming..

[goaround7]

This isn't recurrent training. It's the insurance company trying to make up for what is a poorly designed starting system where you can't close the throttle if the voltage drops during a start. Yes, you can say the pilot should monitor the voltage and abort the start etc but why not just fix the issue so that the throttle can be closed manually ? ( US$1m for a pen that works in zero G or use a pencil ?)

The 'problems' eg. over temps on start and fenestrom mishaps are not the charter organisation's engineers' problems; they result from poor performance in the Head Office, including crap start design and insufficient attention to promulgation of fenestrom handling.

It's nothing to do with 'African Maintenance' - it's the insurance companies, the real controllers of aviation, (CAA being an increasingly useless organisation as stated) trying to deal with a design and info inadequacies.

A Squirrel is a Eurocopter and is a great machine which is why we hoped the 120 would be its equally reliable kid brother. The Gazelle has served well all over the world. It's just the 120, 'B' or otherwise - the 'D' will be something really special, particularly if they give it some power and sort out the CofG.

By 'leaving Eurocopter' I refer to the exodus from the SA office although I am advised this has more to do with customer compaints about crap service (our 120 came back from them in a worse state than when it went in and thankfully the owner is used to their bad service or we might have been blamed somehow), terrible parts availability and a continued cash flow problem since they were ripped off by their head of finance a while back (allegedly).

[B Sousa]

GA7. I was just stating a generality of the SA situation as I see it. You seem to make my point in your comments and somewhere in there I believe we agree. One point is that Im including all not just Eurocopter.
Like it or not Insurance companies DO RULE helicopter operations in that if the aircraft is financed they will set conditions, or if they are owned outright and the owner does not want to lose his shirt, he relys on Insurance. Exposure rate for Helicopters is what has driven them into the picture. A slight up and its millions of Dollars or Rand.
All the other things I mentioned, recurrent training, maintenance problems etc are what drive up the exposure rate......Then the CAA drops in and the paperwork war begins......Might even through in a few Attorneys to increase costs and slow down the process.........
Waiting for the EC120C to come on line............

[Phoenix Rising]

Goaround - You will find that the new guy you are getting there at Eurocopter SA, Guy Johannes will turn things around big time. He used to be CEO over in OZ before going back to France and he turned EIP (Eurocopter Intl Pacific) into a very well respected organisation, even though it is let down by France most of the time. The customer service went skywards and he was very well respected by the industry. Lets hope he is able to do the same.

I had some dealings with the German that was there, Gunther someone and found him to be someone that didnt really seem to care a toss about the customers. But thats just my opinion. I know their sales and marketing team have bailed. Clints gone, Kirtanyas gone and Deon also went. Not sure who is doing what there know.

Just my two cents worth.

[bladestrap]

Phoenix Rising...... that sounds like great news. Hopefully the "new" guy will pay some attention to his customers, and deal with the negative publicity ECSA have received of late.

After reading thru these postings a number of times, it is clear that nothing significant was said by ECSA, and the CAA man has not reacted at all. Not a word from him, other than some information passed on thru some of his mates. (Hearsay)

B.Sousa, you keep on harping about recurrency training. How often should a professional pilot that flies a 100 hours a month go thru recurrency training?? Twice a year, 5 times a year, ten times a year, monthly???

You must remember that the pilots referred to in this thread are all professional. They fly daily to earn their bread, and they do their recurrency training twice annually. It is therefore that I find it indeed very strange that the CAA man, Mr. Broberg, has not responded or commented on this thread. He is the EC 120 guru, having attended various factory courses, and therefore he SHOULD comment, especially since he is a CAA official as well. As a CAA official, it should be his duty, in the interest of aviation safety, to facilitate the transfer of skill and relevant information, especially if it can prevent incidents/accidents. So why the silence?

The big question here is: "Do you blame the lack of recurrency training on all the EC 120 incidents i.e. as the cause of the pilot burning out the engine on the EC 120 in the Waterberg, as well as the Parks Board guy? Also, are you of the opinion that the "roll over" incident in Durban was due to the lack of recurrency training?

You must remember that it was the CAA man who converted the Waterberg pilot to type. Now why did the Waterberg pilot burn out the engine on start? Was it due to the fact that he did not receive sufficient recurrency training, or was it because he's an idiot, or was it because the CAA man did'nt teach him all the tricks or make him aware of all the shortcomings on the EC 120, or was it because he's a great pilot that received great training, but the lack of recurrency was the cause of him burning out the motor? Makes you think huh? Or maybe it was due to the ****ty start system on the machine. We will never know Sir, but what is clear, is the fact that tooo many EC 120 have been involved in incidents/accidents where the pilots were blamed for whatever went wrong.

You must also believe me when I tell you that designers and builders will NEVER believe that their product is inferior, has problems, or are a piece of dirt. Designer/builders will NEVER listen to the pilots out there in the industry who have to operate their machines. They design them, build them, write manuals for them and that's it. No argument.

Mr. Broberg should hold a seminar on all the shortcomings and problems on the EC 120. In such a seminar, he should inform insurers, pilots and owners of the problems on the EC 120 (if any. ;-) and give the interested parties an opportunity to ask questions. That way one can eliminate all the excuses such as "oh the volt meter did'nt read, the solenoid got stuck, the micro swith shorted out etc". Maybe the designers will then also take a different and more co-operative view.

Safe flying is the name of the game, and anyone in the employ of the SACAA, as the regulatory authority, should do everything and anything in his/her power to ensure aviation safety at all levels. That is why Mr. Broberg should have this seminar, and at the same time, he can produce a little leaflet or booklet on the vices of the EC 120, and how to deal with them so that engine burn outs and roll overs can be prevented in the future.

Name the place, date & time and I'll be there. I'll even bring a coupla mates along.

[B Sousa]

Bladestrap writes:"B.Sousa, you keep on harping about recurrency training. How often should a professional pilot that flies a 100 hours a month go thru recurrency training?? Twice a year, 5 times a year, ten times a year, monthly???

You must remember that the pilots referred to in this thread are all professional. They fly daily to earn their bread, and they do their recurrency training twice annually."

You bit on that big time.. My point was that many of those pilots DO fly many hours per month....BUT many DO NOT get their faces in the books and rely on habit to wander through airspace.
I didnt want to put all the Pilots in the same basket, but there are may out there like that.

Forgot to mention you used the term Professional Pilots.. A whole different topic. Professional seems to have been borrowed from our Fixed Wing brothers. The word is used as Professional Helicopter Pilots do that work for a Profession nothing more. Most that I know and fly with....and they are my friends..... professionally have had no less than 20-25 companies on their resumes in the same amount of years. Yes they are for the most part "professional" in their attitude towards the job. But most remain in the profession as after many years most have no retirement plan, no health care, no other form of employment and must be Professional until they die. Im in the same crowd albeit a bit more planning. Im leaving my professional job here in Las Vegas for my winter Professional job in the Virgin Islands. Im glad I dont have to depend on either of these jobs for bread on the table.
Dont take it too seriously, Im not someone that many listen too anyway........

[SANAE1249]

ESAL Epicentre 25 November 2004

Dear fellow 120 Drivers,

I have followed this thread for quite long and it has now come to the point that it is obvious that a lot of people has a lot of questions for different people on the machine and its "gremlins"
Mention is made of the responsibility of Mr Broberg to host a seminar on the machine to answer all the questions.

ESAL have sent out an invitation to customers to attend an "Epicentre" event at their Midrand office on 25 November 2004. This is a drive by EC France to bring representatives of the factory to the customer, to answer questions and to inform them on developements on a specific type. So if you were not invited officially, please call ESAL. I am sure afer all this it would serve the purpose to speak directly to the manufacturer. It is my guess that the people really interested and concerned about developements around the EC120 will go trough the trouble to attend.

So gents/girls, phone ESAL at 0112660357 and show your intention to attend. It would certainly enlarge the group of people operating the product. It would help ensure that the venue is adequate, and that, after the fight there is enough snacks/beers to cool everybody down again. This could be really productive so please try and get there.

[canthover]

The last I heard the guys from ESAL were going on a road show around SA.

To my understanding that was going to be in the "big" centers such as JHB, CPT and DBN - that way I guess more people out there would get a look in - but I guess we have to make to do with whats thrown our way and oh I guess that for us that can't get there - we're simply not interested!! Yeah right.

[goaround7]

Thanks SANAE1249,

Have called and registered for ESAL.

Plan to come in our EC120, experience fenestrom failure, perform a text book autorotation with feet off pedals, land hard on the nose as the CofG will be out as it always is, shut down and immediately do a hot start and melt the engine just to get discussions off to a good start....

[Recuperator]

LOL!!! GA7

GA7,

Man, That was the funniest comment i have read for a long time!

Just remember to do it downwind, so when you open your door and it swings open fully, without the gas strut in place, the blades chop off the top of the pilot's door for you as well!

Will see you on the 25th in Midrand.

R

[goaround7]

Thanks, I'll be the guy with no head as I'll make sure to leave the rear seat belts all fastened nicely so the belt tensioners do their stuff for five instead of one...

[What Red Line?]

I've just taken the time to read through this topic and a very interesting read it was, leading me, and no doubt several others, to the inescapable conclusion that there are some folks out there who really shouldn't be trying to fly the 120.

It seems clear that some of these folks see it as an un-controllable ship that obviously "does things" without any help from the pilot. It is also apparent that some haven't got much time in it, probably due to the fact that every time they do want to fly it, the engine over-temps itself. Then of course, if you are lucky enough to actually get it running (without it overtemping itself) and try to get it off the ground, it either goes into a non-recoverable spin or rolls over (again apparently all by itself).

Simple solution folks, (and you will probably kick yourselves for not thinking of it your-selves) go fly something that you want to fly. Yep, that easy.

WRL

[4HolerPoler]

Wind-up Alert guys - if you do feel inclined to rise to the bait, please keep it nice.

4HP

[goaround7]

Dang it ! Sheeeeet, now why oh why didn't little ol' me think of THAT one ! Hold your horses there boys - I'ma just gonna check with the Boss on this one - surefire thing it'll be okay with him if I do my 3 passenger prairie viewing and the counting of the lil' bokkies in his shiny new 407. Bet he's be just dandy and happy as a hog in sh!t at paying 50% more 'n the 120 per hour.

Maybe I'll take Goaround Junior along wi' me for the ride - he'd lurv that. Folks can't see his buck teeth and be all nasty to 'im when we's flying. Yeehah !