Virginia Airshow (Bell 407 loop & roll thread)
GunsssR4ever
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Virginia Airshow
Any feedback from the Virginia Airshow ?
Nothing in the Sunday Newspapers ?
Nothing in the Sunday Newspapers ?
Last edited by Gunship; 11th Jul 2004 at 21:10.
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Hi There Gunss
Apparently quite a good one... AS ALWAYS.
Don't know how accurate the following statement is, but someone APPARENTLY Rolled and Looped a 407. (???)
Any comments?
Apparently quite a good one... AS ALWAYS.
Don't know how accurate the following statement is, but someone APPARENTLY Rolled and Looped a 407. (???)
Any comments?
GunsssR4ever
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but someone APPARENTLY Rolled and Looped a 407. (???)
Any comments?
Any comments?
Yes - he /she / it is
in the head 
.. or
good ... 
Last edited by Gunship; 13th Jul 2004 at 12:48.
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Virginia Airshow
Great Airshow! Virginia does have the finest location for an airshow in the world. Full program and yes the 407 was looped and rolled much to the amazement of everyone present and on completion to the disbelief of the guys at Bell who were contacted.
They obviously cannot give the OK to such a display as it would set a huge precedent and open them to massive potential claims. The pilot on the day apparently did not exceed 60% tq, speeds were calculated and the manouvres were all done at 1 G. If this was in fact the case then there should be no stresses to the machine, however the possibility of things going wrong could have led to a mess.
I think that we can all see that if Bell were to give this a nod, then we would have many barely qualified people starting to do aerobatics and the resulting potential liability for Bell would be huge.
Airliners in the form of 1-Time (DC-9) and Nationwide performed some great flypasts. SAA were missed especially since they have gained a reputation worldwide for fantastic displays yet are unable to perform at a local event.
Silver Falcons had only one member present as the others have flu?! In days gone by, I am almost certail the show would have continued but the new generation....Bleat!
Sasol Tigers in their L-29's had bit of a touch on Saturday brining their display to an early end. Earlier they had given a very good formation display.
All in all a great day. The best thing about Virginia is the great weather in the middle of winter and the fact that it draws people for all over the world for the day and it is a great venue to sit back and meet old buddies, toss back a few cans of neck oil and revel with other genuine aviation junkies. (Like 4holerpoler who came half way accross the world for the show) I never miss the show!
They obviously cannot give the OK to such a display as it would set a huge precedent and open them to massive potential claims. The pilot on the day apparently did not exceed 60% tq, speeds were calculated and the manouvres were all done at 1 G. If this was in fact the case then there should be no stresses to the machine, however the possibility of things going wrong could have led to a mess.
I think that we can all see that if Bell were to give this a nod, then we would have many barely qualified people starting to do aerobatics and the resulting potential liability for Bell would be huge.
Airliners in the form of 1-Time (DC-9) and Nationwide performed some great flypasts. SAA were missed especially since they have gained a reputation worldwide for fantastic displays yet are unable to perform at a local event.
Silver Falcons had only one member present as the others have flu?! In days gone by, I am almost certail the show would have continued but the new generation....Bleat!
Sasol Tigers in their L-29's had bit of a touch on Saturday brining their display to an early end. Earlier they had given a very good formation display.
All in all a great day. The best thing about Virginia is the great weather in the middle of winter and the fact that it draws people for all over the world for the day and it is a great venue to sit back and meet old buddies, toss back a few cans of neck oil and revel with other genuine aviation junkies. (Like 4holerpoler who came half way accross the world for the show) I never miss the show!
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Can anyone tell me who the pilot of the 407 was?
On one hand, this guy deserves a hand shake and on the other, i would say he must be partially insane....
Next thing we will have Tom, Dick and Harry trying to duplicate these moves.....
Cheers
On one hand, this guy deserves a hand shake and on the other, i would say he must be partially insane....
Next thing we will have Tom, Dick and Harry trying to duplicate these moves.....
Cheers
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Sir Cumference,
Thanks for a great update.
I must admit the "rolling" of the 407 is a worrying fact to me as well.
Being an "old bold' pilot - it aint good for any youngsters to see this - especially if illegal.
I remember in 94 when I was asked to roll a BK 117.
I went through the correct channels and DCA dis -approved as Lansav dis - approved and of course BK dis - approve unless changes on the tail boom was made (cutting of the vertical stabilizer if I remember correctly).
Well CAA reads this and I am sure they will have something to say ...
Thanks for a great update.
I must admit the "rolling" of the 407 is a worrying fact to me as well.
Being an "old bold' pilot - it aint good for any youngsters to see this - especially if illegal.
I remember in 94 when I was asked to roll a BK 117.
I went through the correct channels and DCA dis -approved as Lansav dis - approved and of course BK dis - approve unless changes on the tail boom was made (cutting of the vertical stabilizer if I remember correctly).
Well CAA reads this and I am sure they will have something to say ...
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The show was part of the Starlight/Flashlight/Glow worm/Broken torch display. The driver and I am not sure if I can mention names on this site would be known to Guns as he was once in charge of a local Air Force in times when homelands were made independant.
If that makes sense, then you will know who it was.
SC
If that makes sense, then you will know who it was.
SC
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The Manual on the 407 prohibits these manouvers, so I'm not surprised that the Bell guys condemned it.
The pilot may be a highly skilled aviator, but what did he intend to prove with these manouvers? To show how good he is.......?
If it is indeed true that the helicopter was rolled and looped, one can only but wonder if the CAA approved the manouver?Permission is required from the CAA when any manouver, conducted or performed outside of the normal category of operation is intended.
If it was my helicopter, I would fire the pilot immediately, as irrespective of what he (the pilot) or anyone else says about the manouvers, that no G's were pulled etc, one will never know.
What if damage was done, and something goes wrong in the future? Who is to blame then???
I would say that it is nothing other than irresponsible!
The pilot may be a highly skilled aviator, but what did he intend to prove with these manouvers? To show how good he is.......?
If it is indeed true that the helicopter was rolled and looped, one can only but wonder if the CAA approved the manouver?Permission is required from the CAA when any manouver, conducted or performed outside of the normal category of operation is intended.
If it was my helicopter, I would fire the pilot immediately, as irrespective of what he (the pilot) or anyone else says about the manouvers, that no G's were pulled etc, one will never know.
What if damage was done, and something goes wrong in the future? Who is to blame then???
I would say that it is nothing other than irresponsible!
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Sir Cumference, from your posting it appears you know the pilot. Maybe you can ask him to tell us how he conducted the manouvers. If he won't, maybe he will tell you, and you can tell us.
Would be really interesting to hear more about this.
Would be really interesting to hear more about this.
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Looping and rolling
You know, breaking the rules, especially in front of a large crowd, is not only stupid, but is irresponsible as it can provoke others to do the same thing. "If he/she can do it, I'm sure I can too."
I remember a well-known pilot who nearly killed himself at Lanseria some years ago when he tried to imitate the brilliant display of another pilot earlier in the programme. I especially remember the noise the crowd made when he disappeared from sight. Horror.
When will these "aces" learn ?
Shaking my head sadly, as I remember friends who have killed themselves on a sudden inspiration.
oTd
I remember a well-known pilot who nearly killed himself at Lanseria some years ago when he tried to imitate the brilliant display of another pilot earlier in the programme. I especially remember the noise the crowd made when he disappeared from sight. Horror.
When will these "aces" learn ?
Shaking my head sadly, as I remember friends who have killed themselves on a sudden inspiration.
oTd
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Loops And Rolls
To answer a few of the burning questions, not all, here is what i KNOW to be true, not assumed.
You will all know that a special flight permit is issued by the CAA for EVERY routine performed at an airshow. The deisgnated CAA chap is a highly respected and experienced head of helicopter ops in SA, who approved the routine. This is an exceptional case, where the heli was rolled and looped the day before too.
Bell prohibits the maneouvre, for exactly the reasons named before, to prevent youngsters hopping into dads R22 and going large. A rigid-semi-rigid head is fully capable of 3D flight, as long as a load is always on the blades and the flight envelope is never exceeded.
It was a show-stopper, and even His Eminance was screaming about it never even being seen at Farnborough.
The pilot was VERY experienced, both 50% owners of the 407 were in the crowd and the insurers were informed. Bell, after hearing of the event, flew an inspector to Virginia and pronouced the heli undamaged and safe.
Anyone who saw it saw something unique. A civvie heli has NEVER been rolled and looped at an airshow, and i mean 360 deg turns, not rooivalk wing-overs. After all this noise, you can be pretty sure it aint happenin' again.
You will all know that a special flight permit is issued by the CAA for EVERY routine performed at an airshow. The deisgnated CAA chap is a highly respected and experienced head of helicopter ops in SA, who approved the routine. This is an exceptional case, where the heli was rolled and looped the day before too.
Bell prohibits the maneouvre, for exactly the reasons named before, to prevent youngsters hopping into dads R22 and going large. A rigid-semi-rigid head is fully capable of 3D flight, as long as a load is always on the blades and the flight envelope is never exceeded.
It was a show-stopper, and even His Eminance was screaming about it never even being seen at Farnborough.
The pilot was VERY experienced, both 50% owners of the 407 were in the crowd and the insurers were informed. Bell, after hearing of the event, flew an inspector to Virginia and pronouced the heli undamaged and safe.
Anyone who saw it saw something unique. A civvie heli has NEVER been rolled and looped at an airshow, and i mean 360 deg turns, not rooivalk wing-overs. After all this noise, you can be pretty sure it aint happenin' again.
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mhhhh .. to this day I still get compliments about me , him and a Casa at the Tzaneen Airshow.If it is the man I think it is ... he is way to professional not to get permission and everything in place !
VIVA CE ... now please get us the video and pics man
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I doubt that the insurance was told the 407 was going to do full-on aerobatics, in (apparent) breach of CARs, manufacturers specs, etc. And even if it was told, so what? If what he did was illegal, no matter how many times you tell some insurance idiot, who knows nothing about flying and cares even less, they ain't gonna pay when you break the 'plane! As far as I know, all insurance relies on what you're doing being legal, which is why you won't get paid if you wrap your car around a lamppost while you're drunk. It'll be interesting to hear what CAA have to say, if they actually care enough to say anything at all. Do I sound cynical? Surely not!
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Hey....if Brian could broadcast the drivers name to 15 000 spectators at the show, why the big secret here....?
For pilots ...you sure have a bunch of "moangatte" here ready to shoot him down in flames......
Well done that man.......a world first !!
For pilots ...you sure have a bunch of "moangatte" here ready to shoot him down in flames......
Well done that man.......a world first !!
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Gunss
You're right. It was Mr CE. Highly respected pilot in my eyes. And I think he will go down in the books.
All I know is that I wouldn't try that at home.
DD
You're right. It was Mr CE. Highly respected pilot in my eyes. And I think he will go down in the books.
All I know is that I wouldn't try that at home.
DD
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407 Permission
Guns
I have it on very good authority that the CAA did not give permission for this display and that the CAA gentleman on duty nearly had a hart attack when it occured.
The matter has been forwarded to Bell and their reply was apparently to ground the aircraft and crate it back to the factory for inspection.
It seems that this might just be one of the most expensive displays we've seen in a while.
I have it on very good authority that the CAA did not give permission for this display and that the CAA gentleman on duty nearly had a hart attack when it occured.
The matter has been forwarded to Bell and their reply was apparently to ground the aircraft and crate it back to the factory for inspection.
It seems that this might just be one of the most expensive displays we've seen in a while.
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I have been in contact with people in the know this morning and the facts are as follows:
1. Bell or any representative of Bell have NOT inspected the machine.
2. Certainly one of the owners was not aware of the display and "was white with rage" after the event and wanted instant clarification from Bell as to where he stood.
3. The CAA would only have approved the show if they were convinced that Bell had given approval, which Bell had not.
4. Bell have requested a copy of the video which has been forwarded to them for investigation. They have received information from CE as to how he performed the manoeuvre. This has not been tested and would never be sanctioned by Bell.
5. Bell would only ever do something like this in an experimental machine and by the test pilots, which has not happened.
The official stance from Bell is that further operation of this machine is entirely at the owner's risk! Warranty issues down the road, I am sure that we are all on the same page as to how those requests will be treated!
A show stopper all the same and I was very glad to have been witness to it. I doubt that I would be happy to fly that machine and I would be mad if I was the owner, but hell have I gained respect for the 407!
1. Bell or any representative of Bell have NOT inspected the machine.
2. Certainly one of the owners was not aware of the display and "was white with rage" after the event and wanted instant clarification from Bell as to where he stood.
3. The CAA would only have approved the show if they were convinced that Bell had given approval, which Bell had not.
4. Bell have requested a copy of the video which has been forwarded to them for investigation. They have received information from CE as to how he performed the manoeuvre. This has not been tested and would never be sanctioned by Bell.
5. Bell would only ever do something like this in an experimental machine and by the test pilots, which has not happened.
The official stance from Bell is that further operation of this machine is entirely at the owner's risk! Warranty issues down the road, I am sure that we are all on the same page as to how those requests will be treated!
A show stopper all the same and I was very glad to have been witness to it. I doubt that I would be happy to fly that machine and I would be mad if I was the owner, but hell have I gained respect for the 407!
Last edited by Sir Cumference; 13th Jul 2004 at 07:39.
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As time moves on, so the facts come to light. The information posted by Warloc76 and Sir Cumference, are factually correct.
Rumour has it that the pilot is in DEEP dwang, and may have his licence revoked and suspended.
Furthermore, the pilot was not very economical with the truth when questioned by the CAA official directly after the show.
Rumour has it that the pilot flew the sequence during his "validation flight" on the Friday, and the Airshow Director and Safety Officer authorized the manouver based on information supplied to them by the pilot that Bell and the CAA had approved the manouvers, which we now know, was not the case.
The fact that this pilot was trained in Germany by the factory pilots from MBB how to loop and roll a BK 117 and MBB 105, does not necessarily mean that he, as a "Professional pilot", is entitled to break the rules (and the law) by an act of such stupidity. Stupidity?? YES! The fact that Bell have withdrawn the warranties on the machine, theoretically renders it worthless. NO re-sale value! Zero. May just as well be dumped as scrap.
The 407 handbook clearly states NO aerobatic manouvers permitted, and this SHOULD be respected.
I don't care what anyone says, but this pilot should be brought to book. Not only has he given South African pilots a bad name (Which is clearly the case described on another forum here on PPRUNE) but he has caused huge financial harm to the owners of the helicopter.
The owners should sue him for the replacement costs of a new 407. I would if it was mine!!!
Rumour has it that the pilot is in DEEP dwang, and may have his licence revoked and suspended.
Furthermore, the pilot was not very economical with the truth when questioned by the CAA official directly after the show.
Rumour has it that the pilot flew the sequence during his "validation flight" on the Friday, and the Airshow Director and Safety Officer authorized the manouver based on information supplied to them by the pilot that Bell and the CAA had approved the manouvers, which we now know, was not the case.
The fact that this pilot was trained in Germany by the factory pilots from MBB how to loop and roll a BK 117 and MBB 105, does not necessarily mean that he, as a "Professional pilot", is entitled to break the rules (and the law) by an act of such stupidity. Stupidity?? YES! The fact that Bell have withdrawn the warranties on the machine, theoretically renders it worthless. NO re-sale value! Zero. May just as well be dumped as scrap.
The 407 handbook clearly states NO aerobatic manouvers permitted, and this SHOULD be respected.
I don't care what anyone says, but this pilot should be brought to book. Not only has he given South African pilots a bad name (Which is clearly the case described on another forum here on PPRUNE) but he has caused huge financial harm to the owners of the helicopter.
The owners should sue him for the replacement costs of a new 407. I would if it was mine!!!
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Unfortunately I don't know the pilot, so I am therefore not at liberty to comment on his flying skills or ability.
What is however rumoured in this forum, is the fact that no authority or approval was granted by either the SACAA or Bell to execute these manouvers. Surely, a pilot of this man's calibre would have thought clearly about his actions or his intended actions, and ensured that all was above board? (Clearances, approvals, possible emergency, escape routes etc.)
It will be really interesting to see what action the SACAA intends taking against this pilot, if any.
Gunnzzz, maybe you can entice the pilot to post his version of events here for us.
I must admit that I am not a big 407 fan, but what is undoubtly true, is the fact that the pilot executed these manouvers, and lived for all of us to tell his tale. Interesting! So maybe I should re-evaluate my thoughts on the 407.
What is however rumoured in this forum, is the fact that no authority or approval was granted by either the SACAA or Bell to execute these manouvers. Surely, a pilot of this man's calibre would have thought clearly about his actions or his intended actions, and ensured that all was above board? (Clearances, approvals, possible emergency, escape routes etc.)
It will be really interesting to see what action the SACAA intends taking against this pilot, if any.
Gunnzzz, maybe you can entice the pilot to post his version of events here for us.
I must admit that I am not a big 407 fan, but what is undoubtly true, is the fact that the pilot executed these manouvers, and lived for all of us to tell his tale. Interesting! So maybe I should re-evaluate my thoughts on the 407.