Virginia Airshow (Bell 407 loop & roll thread)
Gatvol
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Absolutely nothing to do with this thread but anyone who would go by the name of "Snotthog" is certainly entitled to a free beer at the Cape Bash on the 28th at the Francois "Chop and Dop"
(even though hes a lurker with only one post)
(even though hes a lurker with only one post)
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Don't know about the conversion - but to come back to the bottom line: This particular helicopter is now the most expensive paper weight in the world. Grounded by the SACAA and the manufacturer (refer my previous post), with the insurance laughing at any hint of a claim.
So who cares about how good the pilot is - in my book he's just plain stupid.
So who cares about how good the pilot is - in my book he's just plain stupid.
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Virginia Airshow
oTd the reason that I say that Virginia is one of the finest locations for an airshow in the world is not just emotional rambling, it is a statement made and justified as follows. Durban does have some of the finest winter weather in the world. The past 18 years of the Virginia Airshow have been 'perfect days'. Most of which have been clear blue skys and temperatures of around 23C and NO wind. The pilots have an excellent line feature, being the beach, they fly at sea-level, the crowd look down sun for most of the day (after about 10:30am), the crowd are close to the runway and to the action. This is obviously not great from a safety point of view but for the guys who pay the bucks (and we are there to promote aviation) they get their money's worth.
I have been to Stellies as you call it and it is a fine venue for an airshow with the mountains in the background etc and I have been to quite a few other venues worldwide. I stick to my statement and am supported by some of the world's best airshow pilots who have been to a lot more airshows than you and I put together.
Back to the 407 issue. Sometimes you are in the right place at the right time and you are witness to an event that may not be legal correct or proper but you are glad to have been on the spot. (no accident in this case - glad!) Do you close your eyes whilst driving in Rome if you see anything illegal? Methinks you will spend most of the day with your eyes firmly shut!
I would not fly the 407 after the incident as I believe that despite there not being any visible damage now (there might be?), my feeling is that someone else, later, might pay the price for this airshow stint!
Apparently there is a reply from Bell saying that the helicopter in question is "un-airworthy" in their opinion. The owner's must be livid! Who is responsible? As I have said before a lot of fingers are being pointed at the pilot, but his display was sanctioned and planned and approved by his emplyers and airshow officials.
Does anyone have any further input with regard to tiny52's post that the pilot did his conversion the day before? We all assume that he had LOTS of experience in the 407 to perform such a display!
I have been to Stellies as you call it and it is a fine venue for an airshow with the mountains in the background etc and I have been to quite a few other venues worldwide. I stick to my statement and am supported by some of the world's best airshow pilots who have been to a lot more airshows than you and I put together.
Back to the 407 issue. Sometimes you are in the right place at the right time and you are witness to an event that may not be legal correct or proper but you are glad to have been on the spot. (no accident in this case - glad!) Do you close your eyes whilst driving in Rome if you see anything illegal? Methinks you will spend most of the day with your eyes firmly shut!
I would not fly the 407 after the incident as I believe that despite there not being any visible damage now (there might be?), my feeling is that someone else, later, might pay the price for this airshow stint!
Apparently there is a reply from Bell saying that the helicopter in question is "un-airworthy" in their opinion. The owner's must be livid! Who is responsible? As I have said before a lot of fingers are being pointed at the pilot, but his display was sanctioned and planned and approved by his emplyers and airshow officials.
Does anyone have any further input with regard to tiny52's post that the pilot did his conversion the day before? We all assume that he had LOTS of experience in the 407 to perform such a display!
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Did said pilot have anything in writing from the owners, airshow officials etc? If not we all know where the buck is going to stop, and everyone will want their pound of flesh.
As Sir C said, Virginia has to be one of the finest locations for an airshow (weather etc), but also anyone in SA who has been in aviation for even a short period of time must agree it is certainly quite a social event. Walking from end to the other takes forever as you bump into friends and collegues.
Recently went to an airshow with Lancaster bomber, Harrier jump jet, Red Arrows,, (long list) displaying, fantastic. Although it was a great show, one kept looking for a familiar face.
Must check roster for next year and see if I can make 2005, at least I know it'll be a lovely day in Durban on the day.
Pilots at our outfit can be expected to send out CV's if flying outside the parameters of the pilot's operating handbook.
As Sir C said, Virginia has to be one of the finest locations for an airshow (weather etc), but also anyone in SA who has been in aviation for even a short period of time must agree it is certainly quite a social event. Walking from end to the other takes forever as you bump into friends and collegues.
Recently went to an airshow with Lancaster bomber, Harrier jump jet, Red Arrows,, (long list) displaying, fantastic. Although it was a great show, one kept looking for a familiar face.
Must check roster for next year and see if I can make 2005, at least I know it'll be a lovely day in Durban on the day.
Pilots at our outfit can be expected to send out CV's if flying outside the parameters of the pilot's operating handbook.
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BELL407
The pilot flying the 407 is a highly qualified pilot with many hours experience and one of the best instructors I've ever had the privelige to fly with. At NO time was the aircraft or himself in any danger. Most of you try and get your heads out of your ar@#$ and realise that the manouvere was a very carefully planned and executed performance!!
Please don't make assumptions whether he had permission or not if you don't know. Most of these guys have extensive operational flying, something that most heli. pilots dream of.
Give a little credit where it's due guys. Any of you ever pushed the envelope.... even slightly!!
Please don't make assumptions whether he had permission or not if you don't know. Most of these guys have extensive operational flying, something that most heli. pilots dream of.
Give a little credit where it's due guys. Any of you ever pushed the envelope.... even slightly!!
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Camshan...
Little bit tense for your first post dontyathink...
May I suggest you READ all the previous posts again..
NOBODY has said that the man is not highly qualified and experienced - quite the opposite in fact.
The reasoning behind the views expressed here, are that it is clear that Bell dont share your views and there is now a very expensive machine declared unairworthy. (see quote below)
This is FACT, not assumption.
As for pushing the envelope - yes, I am sure many have done so. But to disregard the POH and the manufacturer's clear instructions is a different thing altogether. To knowingly and willingly flout the rules is another.
Another time, another place, maybe with the factory 407 test pilot on board - well, who knows. Maybe it would be written into the POH and Bell have another sales pitch to use. This time however, this was not the case.
R
Little bit tense for your first post dontyathink...
May I suggest you READ all the previous posts again..
NOBODY has said that the man is not highly qualified and experienced - quite the opposite in fact.
At NO time was the aircraft or himself in any danger.
Nobody is denying his talent and personality, but MANY people have been in contact with CAA and NO permission was granted.
As for pushing the envelope - yes, I am sure many have done so. But to disregard the POH and the manufacturer's clear instructions is a different thing altogether. To knowingly and willingly flout the rules is another.
Another time, another place, maybe with the factory 407 test pilot on board - well, who knows. Maybe it would be written into the POH and Bell have another sales pitch to use. This time however, this was not the case.
R
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407 MATTER LAID TO REST
This topic, in my opinion has been informative and helpfull to most prospective display pilots, however, I feel that it has been rehashed enough.
Here are the facts:
a. The B407 in question has been grounded pending clarification from the manufacturer on actions required to reinstate the COA.
b. The pilot in questions license has been suspended by the CAA pending remedial action ie. rewriting certain exams.
The pilot in question certainly is a nice guy, he is an experienced helicopter pilot and at the time of the incident had less than 10 hours on type.
I think the authoritues has sent the required message to all aircrew that this type of behaviour will be seen in a serious light and will not be tolerated at any time.
Cheers
Warloc67
Here are the facts:
a. The B407 in question has been grounded pending clarification from the manufacturer on actions required to reinstate the COA.
b. The pilot in questions license has been suspended by the CAA pending remedial action ie. rewriting certain exams.
The pilot in question certainly is a nice guy, he is an experienced helicopter pilot and at the time of the incident had less than 10 hours on type.
I think the authoritues has sent the required message to all aircrew that this type of behaviour will be seen in a serious light and will not be tolerated at any time.
Cheers
Warloc67
Gatvol
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Camshan writes:"Most of you try and get your heads out of your ar@#$ and realise that the manouvere was a very carefully planned and executed performance!! "
Just cant help meself. Another Lurker who also may be a pilot streching bolts on someones airframe.
"A carefully planned and executed performance" against the manufacturers instructions is something that costs money, luckily no lives.
Its obvious that it can be done, just as you can run across the N1 during rush hour traffic............sometimes.
The book just says NO, very simple. So now Camshan we all want you to got out buy a 407 (Rand is better now)and lets watch this guy loop it a few times as we know it can be done. The you dutifully note the loops in the logbook and we can say it was a great show while you try and sell your piece of junk.
By the way it also says about the same thing in the squirell manual and the 206 manual. Can we count on YOU to fly one of those in a loop. Let me know Im getting tickets.
Just cant help meself. Another Lurker who also may be a pilot streching bolts on someones airframe.
"A carefully planned and executed performance" against the manufacturers instructions is something that costs money, luckily no lives.
Its obvious that it can be done, just as you can run across the N1 during rush hour traffic............sometimes.
The book just says NO, very simple. So now Camshan we all want you to got out buy a 407 (Rand is better now)and lets watch this guy loop it a few times as we know it can be done. The you dutifully note the loops in the logbook and we can say it was a great show while you try and sell your piece of junk.
By the way it also says about the same thing in the squirell manual and the 206 manual. Can we count on YOU to fly one of those in a loop. Let me know Im getting tickets.
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Update's?
This has been a very interesting post. Are there any updates? What is the status of the helicopter, the pilot in question etc?
Have Bell given any further requirements to be satisfied?
Have Bell given any further requirements to be satisfied?
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I agree DD. Very defensive of Starbright!
Other manufacturers have been known to perform 'aerobatic' manouvers in their helicopters using test pilots and the machines are equipped with g meters etc and then even if limits have not been exceeded, reducing all component life by 50%. Result - costs rocket!
Other manufacturers have been known to perform 'aerobatic' manouvers in their helicopters using test pilots and the machines are equipped with g meters etc and then even if limits have not been exceeded, reducing all component life by 50%. Result - costs rocket!
Gatvol
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Specifically MD before it was MD used a 500 . It was a factory airframe, not going to be sold to the public as used, and had major inspection capabilities readily available.
Grandpa Aerotart
B Sousa you are correct. When chaps earlier in the thread were stating 'first even civvy chopper looped/rolled'..or words to that effect..I was thinking about the MD500E (from memory) that was looped and rolled on the practice day at an Oz airshow about 25 odd years ago. The Oz CAA guy went ballistic and the MD Factory Test Pilot was absolutely forbidden from performing those manouvers during the airshow.
From memory he didn't roll but did 'loop'...he just tilted the manouver over a little so it wasn't a 'true' loop...probably looked more spectacular as a result. Pissed the CAA guy off but I think nothing happened.
At the same airshow someone else aileron rolled a Lear 35 at low level...think he was in the **** too afterwards.
I'm afraid I have a foot in each camp...been guilty of hijinx in the long past, better behaved these days...aero confined to the sim during recurrent each 6 months. I am completely happy to appreciate a talented pilot doing such manouvering...but to void an aircrafts COA, insurance, warranties etc etc is unforgivable imho.
The 10hrs on type bit gives me the shudders.
Still would love to see the footage
Like I said...a foot in each camp.
Chuck.
From memory he didn't roll but did 'loop'...he just tilted the manouver over a little so it wasn't a 'true' loop...probably looked more spectacular as a result. Pissed the CAA guy off but I think nothing happened.
At the same airshow someone else aileron rolled a Lear 35 at low level...think he was in the **** too afterwards.
I'm afraid I have a foot in each camp...been guilty of hijinx in the long past, better behaved these days...aero confined to the sim during recurrent each 6 months. I am completely happy to appreciate a talented pilot doing such manouvering...but to void an aircrafts COA, insurance, warranties etc etc is unforgivable imho.
The 10hrs on type bit gives me the shudders.
Still would love to see the footage
Like I said...a foot in each camp.
Chuck.
