Request to ATC ?
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Request to ATC ?
I have noticed a large increase in the amount of calls initiated to ATC, in the Cape Town FIR, for a request (from a pilot) and then no request is forthcoming!!
As you know, once you have established 2 way contact with ATC, it is not necessary to establish contact with that ATS unit again. However, recently, when some pilots want to make a request, they call ATC and announce they have a request and then wait for ATC to respond to them before the pass the request. It is not applicable to all pilots and not under all circumstances. Not only does it result in a massive amount of r/t workload, but it is unnecessary. Doing it this way requires 4 transmissions, where if you pass the request at the same time as you say you have a request, the whole "transaction/request" can be completed in 2 transmissions. '
'
To the guilty parties: you do not establish contact with ATC when you want to request descent/further climb/visual approach(if your company does not prevent you from doing them), yet you establish contact when you want to change a level en-route/divert left or right for wx avoidance? '
' I know I repeated standard six (ask my old lady - she will tell you that as well!!), but it does not make sense to me.
SO this is a genuine appeal: It is not necessary to establish contact when you want to make a request, simply go ahead and make it. After all, once you have rung my doorbell and I have let you into my house, you do not ring my doorbell every time you want to talk to me ( or do you - in which case I will get pretty '
' off and will ignore you) do you? We are all trying to reduce workload to enable us to handle more aircraft, but these (unnecessary transmissions) are not helping the cause. '
'
Thanks and oh request, maybe if you do not do it properly we might have to ask you to say your request words twice, until you get it right. And then you will upset the bee-keeper.................... ''
As you know, once you have established 2 way contact with ATC, it is not necessary to establish contact with that ATS unit again. However, recently, when some pilots want to make a request, they call ATC and announce they have a request and then wait for ATC to respond to them before the pass the request. It is not applicable to all pilots and not under all circumstances. Not only does it result in a massive amount of r/t workload, but it is unnecessary. Doing it this way requires 4 transmissions, where if you pass the request at the same time as you say you have a request, the whole "transaction/request" can be completed in 2 transmissions. '
'To the guilty parties: you do not establish contact with ATC when you want to request descent/further climb/visual approach(if your company does not prevent you from doing them), yet you establish contact when you want to change a level en-route/divert left or right for wx avoidance? '
' I know I repeated standard six (ask my old lady - she will tell you that as well!!), but it does not make sense to me.SO this is a genuine appeal: It is not necessary to establish contact when you want to make a request, simply go ahead and make it. After all, once you have rung my doorbell and I have let you into my house, you do not ring my doorbell every time you want to talk to me ( or do you - in which case I will get pretty '
' off and will ignore you) do you? We are all trying to reduce workload to enable us to handle more aircraft, but these (unnecessary transmissions) are not helping the cause. ''Thanks and oh request, maybe if you do not do it properly we might have to ask you to say your request words twice, until you get it right. And then you will upset the bee-keeper.................... '
'
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Not just in Africa... I've noticed this mindless trend spreading over the past couple of years....a pilot hears it then hears it a couple of times more and before he realises it he's contracted the disease... ATC should admonish the pilot and the rest would sit up and take notice... the disease would then be erradicated very quickly..
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Well said 126,7!!!!
Goldfish Jack, as a fellow collegue in the "busier sector" in SA I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. The RT time that is taken up increases the ATC workload to an unbelievable extent. The other major problem is the lack of discipline, especially in the commercial sector (the big boys ) who appear to turn off their ears once they get into a busier environment. If I had 50 cents for every time I had to repeat a transmission (usually more than once) I wouldn't need to go to Dubai in the future!!
The "radio-discipline" in controlled airspace in SA is absolutely shocking and that's not just my opinion. The foreign contingent of controllers who have just joined us agree wholeheartedly!!!
Goldfish Jack, as a fellow collegue in the "busier sector" in SA I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. The RT time that is taken up increases the ATC workload to an unbelievable extent. The other major problem is the lack of discipline, especially in the commercial sector (the big boys
) who appear to turn off their ears once they get into a busier environment. If I had 50 cents for every time I had to repeat a transmission (usually more than once) I wouldn't need to go to Dubai in the future!! The "radio-discipline" in controlled airspace in SA is absolutely shocking and that's not just my opinion. The foreign contingent of controllers who have just joined us agree wholeheartedly!!!
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Hey 126,7 - you are right I am joking!!!!
It only becomes massive when you have to answer all the unnecessary reqeusts because pilots do not know how to make a request.
That makes us busy - not the traffic!!
Master HOCT: I agree wholeheartedly with you. The discipline is sadly lacking in some fleets and companies. They think the bigger they are the more arrogant they can get and we must accomodate them!! Wait until SAATS is up and running and they are in for a pleasant suprise!!!!
Spot you on the phone!! "request...!!"
It only becomes massive when you have to answer all the unnecessary reqeusts because pilots do not know how to make a request.
That makes us busy - not the traffic!!
Master HOCT: I agree wholeheartedly with you. The discipline is sadly lacking in some fleets and companies. They think the bigger they are the more arrogant they can get and we must accomodate them!! Wait until SAATS is up and running and they are in for a pleasant suprise!!!!
Spot you on the phone!! "request...!!"
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Since this has now turned into an ATC bitching session, let me join in.
Agree with Goldfish Jack regarding the addisional transmission for a request to be made.
Disagree with Master H.O.C.T regarding repeat transmissions. To label it as purely bad discipline is underestimating the real probem. There are obviously other comms taking place on the flight deck other than pilot/ATC which is as vital to safe flight operations. In congested air space like JHB AREA, there is virtually a continous flow of information between ATC and pilots. Probably 1% of these calls are directed at you, but you must still monitor all transmissions, which make addisional comms (cabin crew, checklists, PA announcements etc) on the flight deck almost impossible.
A sollution to this would be to open up more sectors to cut down on the number of transmissions per frequency, BUT then we will probably end up in the HOLD again!
Agree with Goldfish Jack regarding the addisional transmission for a request to be made.
Disagree with Master H.O.C.T regarding repeat transmissions. To label it as purely bad discipline is underestimating the real probem. There are obviously other comms taking place on the flight deck other than pilot/ATC which is as vital to safe flight operations. In congested air space like JHB AREA, there is virtually a continous flow of information between ATC and pilots. Probably 1% of these calls are directed at you, but you must still monitor all transmissions, which make addisional comms (cabin crew, checklists, PA announcements etc) on the flight deck almost impossible.
A sollution to this would be to open up more sectors to cut down on the number of transmissions per frequency, BUT then we will probably end up in the HOLD again!
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Hi Real Orca
Interesting comments from another point of view!! Maar ek wag vir jou!!
Geluk '' with the course and putting up with Sker for so long!!!! ''
Request: When you buying the drinks??????? (sorry I missed that say again??) '
'
Groete
Interesting comments from another point of view!! Maar ek wag vir jou!!
Geluk '
' with the course and putting up with Sker for so long!!!! ''Request: When you buying the drinks??????? (sorry I missed that say again??) '
'Groete
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Having flown in many parts of the world, it is my experience that the general RT is as good or bad as the ATC allows it to be. So if there is something that isn't according to procedures then remember that it was you that issued that radio licence in the first place. Say something to the offending party, and he will never do it again, don't just let it pass and wind yourself up about a situation that you have the power to change.
I was also wandering if - like aircrew - is it mandatory for controllers to do CRM courses? After all, they are as much part of the successful completion of any flight. I have never been on course where there has been an ATC. If not required for your currencies, why not come along and join in with us, then perhaps we can all work in the same direction........
I was also wandering if - like aircrew - is it mandatory for controllers to do CRM courses? After all, they are as much part of the successful completion of any flight. I have never been on course where there has been an ATC. If not required for your currencies, why not come along and join in with us, then perhaps we can all work in the same direction........
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I don't know how busy Cape Town is these days.
At the moment I am doing a lot of flying in the US where the traffic is probably slightly busier than Cape Town.
Due to the high volumes of traffic here, The standard phraseology would be "New York Centre N1234 request", and then wait for the controller to say " N1234 go ahead the request ", when you would say " N1234 request climb 350...or whatever".
This is because the controller is so busy controlling a multitude of targets at the same time and cannot bounce around out of the sequence of his controlling.
Goldfish Jack, try flying in and out of DFW with five parrallel runways a pumping on a Monday morning, then you will see what chaos you would cause if you were to burble out your whole request without invitation from the controller!
Maybe some of these pilots of big birds that you refer to have had exposure to such traffic in London or the US.
V1 Rotate
At the moment I am doing a lot of flying in the US where the traffic is probably slightly busier than Cape Town.
Due to the high volumes of traffic here, The standard phraseology would be "New York Centre N1234 request", and then wait for the controller to say " N1234 go ahead the request ", when you would say " N1234 request climb 350...or whatever".
This is because the controller is so busy controlling a multitude of targets at the same time and cannot bounce around out of the sequence of his controlling.
Goldfish Jack, try flying in and out of DFW with five parrallel runways a pumping on a Monday morning, then you will see what chaos you would cause if you were to burble out your whole request without invitation from the controller!
Maybe some of these pilots of big birds that you refer to have had exposure to such traffic in London or the US.
V1 Rotate
Last edited by V1 Rotate; 4th Nov 2003 at 12:12.
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In my opinion I tend to agree with Real Orca. Many a time, just getting right to it by saying "xyz request right of track due weather" as ATC would like us to do, it is often followed by "Station calling ABC say again your request" or "XYZ say again". Now we are bombarded with extra RT by ATC and the meantime breakfast is getting cold. I have found this to happen more often in the less congested airspaces in SA.
I can only assume that this is due to ATC being human, same as us, and when it is not so busy, like us, start digging into serious conversation about who knows what.
I think, "ABC, XYZ request, is often a nice way not to spill the oaks coffee al over his newspaper in order for him to promptly tend to your request, especially on the rustige days.
Thanks anyway for the brilliant controlling in SA.
I can only assume that this is due to ATC being human, same as us, and when it is not so busy, like us, start digging into serious conversation about who knows what.
I think, "ABC, XYZ request, is often a nice way not to spill the oaks coffee al over his newspaper in order for him to promptly tend to your request, especially on the rustige days.
Thanks anyway for the brilliant controlling in SA.
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Hey Donald... NO i am not BOER, but a South African and very proud of it.
I can say this has certainly stirred up a hornets nest! I think that we all have got a lot to learn and having just spent some in the UK and visiting Gatwick, We have got a lot to learn down at the bottom of Africa!
Oh for a system like the UK that works efficiently and well, not that SA's does not, but there is a hell of a lot of room for improvement, both from ATC and pilots sides!
There are exciting times ahead, with ATNS upgrading their systems and with some of the work being done. Lets hope all the participants come to the party and we can achieve everything we are talking about right now!!
Dont say your request - just type it!!!!! Roll on CPCDL
I can say this has certainly stirred up a hornets nest! I think that we all have got a lot to learn and having just spent some in the UK and visiting Gatwick, We have got a lot to learn down at the bottom of Africa!
Oh for a system like the UK that works efficiently and well, not that SA's does not, but there is a hell of a lot of room for improvement, both from ATC and pilots sides!
There are exciting times ahead, with ATNS upgrading their systems and with some of the work being done. Lets hope all the participants come to the party and we can achieve everything we are talking about right now!!
Dont say your request - just type it!!!!! Roll on CPCDL
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Goldfish
Seen as you've visited LGW perhaps you could tell us what you think of the system we have over here. I have little knowledge of the workings of ATC except from my experiences as a PPL but the perception is that the UK system is seriously overstretched to almost dangerous levels.
Seen as you've visited LGW perhaps you could tell us what you think of the system we have over here. I have little knowledge of the workings of ATC except from my experiences as a PPL but the perception is that the UK system is seriously overstretched to almost dangerous levels.
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George Tower,
In Europe the whole thing is governed by slot times, so the volumes are controlled by ATC themselves. So it is not possible for it to become-
" seriously overstretched to almost dangerous levels. "
If you think Gatwick is busy, try Chicago or Atlanta!
I have personally flown in South Africa, The US and Europe and always found the controlling to be of a high standard in all three countries.
Problem in South Africa is that the controllers aren't paid enough which results in a continual "Brain drain" of good controllers.
V1
In Europe the whole thing is governed by slot times, so the volumes are controlled by ATC themselves. So it is not possible for it to become-
" seriously overstretched to almost dangerous levels. "
If you think Gatwick is busy, try Chicago or Atlanta!
I have personally flown in South Africa, The US and Europe and always found the controlling to be of a high standard in all three countries.
Problem in South Africa is that the controllers aren't paid enough which results in a continual "Brain drain" of good controllers.
V1
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V1,
I should have said that was the media's perception not necessarily my own.
Interesting to note your comments on the "brain-drain" as I know this is the case not only in ATC but across most professions in SA with pay not the only issue. Funnily enough I was speaking to an ATC from a certain place that is my pprune name, and he said that he refused an opportunity in the UK due to the poor pay. So perhaps the grass isn't always greener?
I should have said that was the media's perception not necessarily my own.
Interesting to note your comments on the "brain-drain" as I know this is the case not only in ATC but across most professions in SA with pay not the only issue. Funnily enough I was speaking to an ATC from a certain place that is my pprune name, and he said that he refused an opportunity in the UK due to the poor pay. So perhaps the grass isn't always greener?
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"Oh for a system like the UK that works efficiently and well.."
Not too sure about that, been bounced about a bit going into LHR, LGW, MAN, BHX in the past. Yes we're all human and the system works, but it's not flawless...
As for SA, I have always found ATC to be of a good standard, just don't understand why JNB always repeat your callsign after a tranmission: eg:
ATC: "XXX, Climb F310"
XXX: " Climb F310, XXX"
ATC: "XXX"
As for CPDLC, all I can say is YEAH, BABY, YEAH!! No more HF
Not too sure about that, been bounced about a bit going into LHR, LGW, MAN, BHX in the past. Yes we're all human and the system works, but it's not flawless...
As for SA, I have always found ATC to be of a good standard, just don't understand why JNB always repeat your callsign after a tranmission: eg:
ATC: "XXX, Climb F310"
XXX: " Climb F310, XXX"
ATC: "XXX"
As for CPDLC, all I can say is YEAH, BABY, YEAH!! No more HF