Request to ATC ?
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I am not in the mood to talk about a brain drain, suffice to say that it was a pleasure to see some of those people join the brain drain - enough about that!! Yes we lost some great controllers, but we have some even better ones coming through the system (and let me tell you a few of the youngsters under training now are '
' hot.
As to the US system, the only reason it survives and can move the amount of traffic is that it relies on VFR weather and puts most of the responsibility into the cockpit for separations!! That is why they manage to land aircraft on top of each other, amongst things. It is no doubt that the worst pilots in the world, iro ATC and procedures come from the states - ask any one in a civilised western country and I speak from experience - they have the same problems with them at EGKK as we do at the bottom of Africa!
The UK system is a very good system and, no, does not rely all the time on slots, but to a great degree, yes, it does. It relies on level headedness, common sense, initiative and pilots that respond to ATCs and vice versa, as well airline despatchers/ground handlers that understand a system and how to work in it - that is a major problem in Africa. The are all geared to move aircraft efficiently and safely and if you have that a system will work. It was very intersting to see it and how it comes together.
Go to the states and see how the system COLLAPSES in bad weather - then you have total shambles and complete chaos. You can tell me as much as you want about the US system but ti only works in VMC.
Right, seeing as I is still in the UK, let me get back to warm beer, food heated in the microwave and ice cold red wine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Orca hope the circuits went well and I am back on the 11th and we need to drink seriously................................................
' hot.As to the US system, the only reason it survives and can move the amount of traffic is that it relies on VFR weather and puts most of the responsibility into the cockpit for separations!! That is why they manage to land aircraft on top of each other, amongst things. It is no doubt that the worst pilots in the world, iro ATC and procedures come from the states - ask any one in a civilised western country and I speak from experience - they have the same problems with them at EGKK as we do at the bottom of Africa!
The UK system is a very good system and, no, does not rely all the time on slots, but to a great degree, yes, it does. It relies on level headedness, common sense, initiative and pilots that respond to ATCs and vice versa, as well airline despatchers/ground handlers that understand a system and how to work in it - that is a major problem in Africa. The are all geared to move aircraft efficiently and safely and if you have that a system will work. It was very intersting to see it and how it comes together.
Go to the states and see how the system COLLAPSES in bad weather - then you have total shambles and complete chaos. You can tell me as much as you want about the US system but ti only works in VMC.
Right, seeing as I is still in the UK, let me get back to warm beer, food heated in the microwave and ice cold red wine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Orca hope the circuits went well and I am back on the 11th and we need to drink seriously................................................
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Firstly, thank you to the ATC's in South Africa - you are great and it's an absolute relief to get handed back to 126.7 after being north of the border for extended periods of time! There's literally smiles all round in the cockpit! it's like, 'FINALLY ! Someone who knows what he/she are doing, who's actuallyexpecting us, and not only that but knows our 'registration and souls on board', even!!!'
I'm sure a list of 'pet' grievances would be appreciated by all, it would be by me, so that we could smoothen each other's lives more! Don't even leave out the silly ones.
I'm sure a list of 'pet' grievances would be appreciated by all, it would be by me, so that we could smoothen each other's lives more! Don't even leave out the silly ones.
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Just some quick comments about the "brain drain"
Certainly the SA ATCs are some of the best, otherwise you wouldn’t hear the jaapie accents all over the place from several centers in Europe to EVERY center in the UAE!
The youngsters coming through the ranks now have certainly profited from the brain drain as far as salaries are concerned.
On the flip side, they have lost out. ATNS cant offer enough time off, and they made sure the guys don’t leave so soon either by cuffing them to the radar screen with horrendous training bonds over a five year period.
Joburg is the center suffering the most under the brain drain. Then again, those are the main manne what counts ek sê!! They are also the hardest working and the best paid in SA. All overseas ATC poachers are only happy to take the applicants if they see JNB on the chaps licence. (no offense Goldfish)
Comair, SAA and charter operators each have a seat or two on the ATNS board and they would rather have their aircraft fly holds all over than pay the poor ATC a proper salary that would probably keep him in the country. So it must also be cheaper bringing 11 Danes into SA to help out and pay all their relocation costs etc etc. Strange that after only 2 months there were only 7 left. The exodus continues.
Certainly the SA ATCs are some of the best, otherwise you wouldn’t hear the jaapie accents all over the place from several centers in Europe to EVERY center in the UAE!
The youngsters coming through the ranks now have certainly profited from the brain drain as far as salaries are concerned.
On the flip side, they have lost out. ATNS cant offer enough time off, and they made sure the guys don’t leave so soon either by cuffing them to the radar screen with horrendous training bonds over a five year period.
Joburg is the center suffering the most under the brain drain. Then again, those are the main manne what counts ek sê!! They are also the hardest working and the best paid in SA. All overseas ATC poachers are only happy to take the applicants if they see JNB on the chaps licence. (no offense Goldfish)
Comair, SAA and charter operators each have a seat or two on the ATNS board and they would rather have their aircraft fly holds all over than pay the poor ATC a proper salary that would probably keep him in the country. So it must also be cheaper bringing 11 Danes into SA to help out and pay all their relocation costs etc etc. Strange that after only 2 months there were only 7 left. The exodus continues.
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atns
if there is a shortage of controllers, why is atns being so stand-offish towards new applicants?
I have a friend who wants to become an atc, but is being mucked about by atns?
I have a friend who wants to become an atc, but is being mucked about by atns?
Warlock
Its only on JNB Area that they acknowledge every Tx with your call sign. Those are speial people that work there so we will let them do it cause they still doing an excelent job.
My pet hate for africanskies is when you should be expecting a radio call and we have to keep calling ie approaching the holding point and expecting a X-ing clearance Or lined up on the RWY the next thing you expect would surely be a Take off Clearance. I understand that it is best to be sure but surely you should be expecting us to call you and then listening out.
Its only on JNB Area that they acknowledge every Tx with your call sign. Those are speial people that work there so we will let them do it cause they still doing an excelent job.
My pet hate for africanskies is when you should be expecting a radio call and we have to keep calling ie approaching the holding point and expecting a X-ing clearance Or lined up on the RWY the next thing you expect would surely be a Take off Clearance. I understand that it is best to be sure but surely you should be expecting us to call you and then listening out.
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boyz and girlz,
use your common sence...........
if its busy on the freq........keep it short, but clear........you hear...but clear...
not busy, no bs but the call should be alowed to make at once......
we are all proffesionals!!!!!!! i hope....... so stop complaining and use your comon sence.........
keep it up......safe..........and fun.
qte
use your common sence...........
if its busy on the freq........keep it short, but clear........you hear...but clear...
not busy, no bs but the call should be alowed to make at once......
we are all proffesionals!!!!!!! i hope....... so stop complaining and use your comon sence.........
keep it up......safe..........and fun.
qte
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Brain Drain - more like supply and demand. A few years ago only select few with more than a good few years ATC experience could go to the Middle East from JNB. If You think only Jnb'rs got there recently - try again - some very shady characters got there. Speak to some Jnb'rs and they'll tell you some who left couldn't seperate the cheeks of their ass let alone have any experience to talk of or a Jnb ticket. ATNS management sucks I'm told - always out to offer their controllers some or other " sell your soul " type package. The UAE salaries have been pretty much fixed , SA salariies have averaged at 10%pa increased and the Rand strengthened over 30% in just over a year. Sure you pay tax in SA but any Seth african will agree that SA still has a good quality of life. A good few (very capable) ctlr'rs left in jnb still doing an excellent job - just cause some know your name doesn't make them shi**Hot is worth knowing too!
As for USA type controlling - they don't subscribe to ICAO as FAA rules there in a big way - so , yes you can land 4 following acft on the same rwy at the same time with reasonable assurance no-body will hit - hows that! Sometimes they get it wrong, but per US acft movement they would still have safe skies. Which lets them also have the top 10 bussiest (iro airport movements) airports in the world. Incidently some wiser person could do the sums iro traffic movements re JNB - for the amount of APP/RDR traffic moved in JNB per controller, Heathrow would move a 1/4 acft per controller if not less, pay high taxes, have reasonable quality of life (incl crap WX) and earn 55K sterling+. Over and Out
As for USA type controlling - they don't subscribe to ICAO as FAA rules there in a big way - so , yes you can land 4 following acft on the same rwy at the same time with reasonable assurance no-body will hit - hows that! Sometimes they get it wrong, but per US acft movement they would still have safe skies. Which lets them also have the top 10 bussiest (iro airport movements) airports in the world. Incidently some wiser person could do the sums iro traffic movements re JNB - for the amount of APP/RDR traffic moved in JNB per controller, Heathrow would move a 1/4 acft per controller if not less, pay high taxes, have reasonable quality of life (incl crap WX) and earn 55K sterling+. Over and Out
Last edited by gofor; 16th Nov 2003 at 19:59.
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CEP -Call youself a wopplehead if you like - seems you may be a 'company man' after all!!
Apologies to golfish jack who began this thread as we seem to have missed the topic a tad. The format of transmissions is typical of any international carrier who has to deal with Africa/middle east/asia/ far east/oceanic regions etc where the carrier often speaks to someone who only expects exact std r/t. So to get the ctlr ready with his pen paper etc , back at the desk or turn down the TV, the pilot normally would say "XXX....Request" or "XXX....position". Also the guy on the other end is often not native english and all you will get after a lengthy request is " ....eh? last call say again callsign". Even lengthier unnecissary RT results. So eg, a DLH would enter your space and give the "DLH573, position" etc a less prudent up and coming aviatior would think this is obviously the way to go and begins that trend in SA space. This type of RT is standard for may regions / carriers. Hope this may shed some light as It would frustrate me too.
Oh yess , CEP forgot to mention that your pension is coming up soon - gold watch an all. Stench is great, surfs up!!
Apologies to golfish jack who began this thread as we seem to have missed the topic a tad. The format of transmissions is typical of any international carrier who has to deal with Africa/middle east/asia/ far east/oceanic regions etc where the carrier often speaks to someone who only expects exact std r/t. So to get the ctlr ready with his pen paper etc , back at the desk or turn down the TV, the pilot normally would say "XXX....Request" or "XXX....position". Also the guy on the other end is often not native english and all you will get after a lengthy request is " ....eh? last call say again callsign". Even lengthier unnecissary RT results. So eg, a DLH would enter your space and give the "DLH573, position" etc a less prudent up and coming aviatior would think this is obviously the way to go and begins that trend in SA space. This type of RT is standard for may regions / carriers. Hope this may shed some light as It would frustrate me too.
Oh yess , CEP forgot to mention that your pension is coming up soon - gold watch an all. Stench is great, surfs up!!
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 19th Nov 2003 at 06:02.
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-Request-
Request to close this thread........................
South African ATC, is the best with in the whole continent, one question though for for Goldfish Jack, why is it, you guys reapeat our callsign as confimation to our readback?? We are talking about clogging up the frq, right?
Chocks In, Brakes off
Request to close this thread........................
South African ATC, is the best with in the whole continent, one question though for for Goldfish Jack, why is it, you guys reapeat our callsign as confimation to our readback?? We are talking about clogging up the frq, right?
Chocks In, Brakes off
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Wheelchock
thanks for the comments - I agree with you that the comments have gone off the thopic. So maybe that is a good thing.
I am not sure why we do it, apart from the fact that ICAO require a acknowledgement of a clearance. But then if you keep quiet when it is correct that should also be good enough. Only correct the uncorrect (English grammar - was never my strong point at school!)
I am not sure why my colleagues do this - I agree with you that it wastes time. A lot of it is due to inexperience and also many of my colleagues think they work in a busy environment!!! Wait until they see how real ATC is done!!
One day...
Now let me get back to sleep and think of another topic to stir.
ps Did you know that we have employed an ex NATS controller to attend to some of our problems and see how we can impove our service and speed up things?... One point to come out so far is that runway occupancy at FAJS runs at 90secs per aircraft, whilst it is approx 55 at Gatwick and approx 50 at Heathrow. NOw if we can only speed that up, we will start to improve the service. SO you see it is not only ATCs that hold the boat up. Now get your fat off my runway 
But thanks for the comments - have a good day
thanks for the comments - I agree with you that the comments have gone off the thopic. So maybe that is a good thing.
I am not sure why we do it, apart from the fact that ICAO require a acknowledgement of a clearance. But then if you keep quiet when it is correct that should also be good enough. Only correct the uncorrect (English grammar - was never my strong point at school!)
I am not sure why my colleagues do this - I agree with you that it wastes time. A lot of it is due to inexperience and also many of my colleagues think they work in a busy environment!!! Wait until they see how real ATC is done!!
One day...
Now let me get back to sleep and think of another topic to stir.
ps Did you know that we have employed an ex NATS controller to attend to some of our problems and see how we can impove our service and speed up things?... One point to come out so far is that runway occupancy at FAJS runs at 90secs per aircraft, whilst it is approx 55 at Gatwick and approx 50 at Heathrow. NOw if we can only speed that up, we will start to improve the service. SO you see it is not only ATCs that hold the boat up. Now get your fat
off my runway But thanks for the comments - have a good day
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Greetings
And you and your colleagues are going to work at JHB when????
A lot of it is due to inexperience and also many of my colleagues think they work in a busy environment!!!Wait until they see how real ATC is done!!
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There's not too many high-speed turn-offs at Joburg Goldjack. There's highspeeds all over the place at Heathrow & Gatwick. In fact the only 90 degree taxiways that I can remember at Heathrow are the ones at the end of 27R; you're normally off well before you get there. Gatwick has high-speeds on both runways and they only go 90 towards the end. In fact they're running a trial program using the Rapid Exit Taxiway Indicator Lighting System (RETILS). Nothing like that in Joburg. These issues, IMHO, explain why the runway occupancy times are greater in Joburg.
Closer to home, Cape Town, Runway 19 requires turns in excess of 90 degrees to clear. I'll bet you a case of Castle that runway occupancy averages are a lot less when using 01 than when 19 is is use.
Have you ever gone around a 90 degree doing 60 knots? You don't want to be there.
4HP
Closer to home, Cape Town, Runway 19 requires turns in excess of 90 degrees to clear. I'll bet you a case of Castle that runway occupancy averages are a lot less when using 01 than when 19 is is use.
Have you ever gone around a 90 degree doing 60 knots? You don't want to be there.
4HP
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Howzit 4Hp
Won't argue with you about the time on 19 vs 01 as I tend to agree with you, but having spent some time recently at Gatwick, I was amazed at how the attitude of the pilots varies there to over here in SA. Sorry to say it. I have recently also been involved in timing aircraft on the runways at CT and it is quite amazing. The best was 3mins and 48 secs from echo taxiway hold to line up and take off in a B737-800!!! and he said he was ready for an immediate!!
Aircraft can get off runway 01 quicker than 19 agree, but my word some of them can take their time getting going. The Cat 1 (visual ) holds at the thresholds do speed things up a bit, when it gets busy, but you know with certain of fleets you do not clear them for an immediate t/o, as they take too long on the runway. Ask me - I am getting too old to get bold!! Only this week I had a schedule flight call me ready and when I told him (twice PLEASE) to line up and be ready for an immediate due traffic on a 4 mile final, (it was a BE20)he stated it wont be possible to do that.
ACSA has got plans for a high speed turn off on runway 19 and it will be in by the end of December, but we do not know which year that will be yet (do they??)
It was very interesting in the pub the other night at a well known hotel, to discover that out of 3 captains, none of them knew that an "immediate take - off " means "enter the runway and commence your t/o roll in one continious move," (ICAO definition) without any stopping on the runway !!
4Hp, It is about time you bought that 4 hole machine to the Cape so we can drink those castles and have another bash.
Right after the depressing news about the bomb blasts in Turkey - (WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE WORLD TODAY???), I think I must go out and have a drink. On this sad note, and it really depresses me, my sympathies to all of those who lost loved ones in Turkey recently - hell it REALLY is depressing.
Won't argue with you about the time on 19 vs 01 as I tend to agree with you, but having spent some time recently at Gatwick, I was amazed at how the attitude of the pilots varies there to over here in SA. Sorry to say it. I have recently also been involved in timing aircraft on the runways at CT and it is quite amazing. The best was 3mins and 48 secs from echo taxiway hold to line up and take off in a B737-800!!! and he said he was ready for an immediate!!
Aircraft can get off runway 01 quicker than 19 agree, but my word some of them can take their time getting going. The Cat 1 (visual ) holds at the thresholds do speed things up a bit, when it gets busy, but you know with certain of fleets you do not clear them for an immediate t/o, as they take too long on the runway. Ask me - I am getting too old to get bold!! Only this week I had a schedule flight call me ready and when I told him (twice PLEASE) to line up and be ready for an immediate due traffic on a 4 mile final, (it was a BE20)he stated it wont be possible to do that.
ACSA has got plans for a high speed turn off on runway 19 and it will be in by the end of December, but we do not know which year that will be yet (do they??)
It was very interesting in the pub the other night at a well known hotel, to discover that out of 3 captains, none of them knew that an "immediate take - off " means "enter the runway and commence your t/o roll in one continious move," (ICAO definition) without any stopping on the runway !!
4Hp, It is about time you bought that 4 hole machine to the Cape so we can drink those castles and have another bash.
Right after the depressing news about the bomb blasts in Turkey - (WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE WORLD TODAY???), I think I must go out and have a drink. On this sad note, and it really depresses me, my sympathies to all of those who lost loved ones in Turkey recently - hell it REALLY is depressing.
