Mentioned a long way back but my understanding is that it isn't illegal on a UK reg. aircraft anyway to still have a mode A/C transponder. If you replace it however you must replace it with a Mode S unit
. |
Do we know for certain that exploitation or rule breaking has occurred here. It seems that everything said on this so far is pure conjecture. He might have had a CPL if he was doing regular para dropping. It is entirely possible that this was a properly conducted commercial flight. It is also possible it was a legally conducted private flight. It is possible that he was not that familiar with flying this particular aircraft in IMC conditions, and he could have become overwhelmed with icing in an unfamiliar aircraft, but we don't know anything for certain other than the aircraft is missing. He could have had a heart attack for all we know, or the passenger may have had a panic attack and distracted the pilot. This is all pure speculation of course, like everything else mentioned here so far.
All the people suggesting tighter regulation might want to be certain of what, if any, regulations had been broken here, and how tightening them up would have changed things. I do not believe that regulations, broken or otherwise, have contributed to the unfortunate outcome. There are plenty of aircraft piloted by two commercial pilots on properly chartered flights that have also ended tragically, and also Commercial Air Transport journeys don't have s 100% success rate. |
Originally Posted by EddieHeli
(Post 10368617)
It is entirely possible that this was a properly conducted commercial flight.
|
Originally Posted by what next
(Post 10368621)
With a privately owned, American registered aircraft between two European countries?
|
Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2
(Post 10368483)
It's upsetting to think that I was sitting down to enjoy a nice meal, with a brand new light business jet sitting on the apron, while this was all unfolding for him.
A few thousand more £ and he'd be training with his mates in Cardiff right now. Footballers are regular customers of mine. We were certainly available at time. If the agent organised this for him, he needs to be strung up. |
BBC News reports that player - or his agent - arranged the flight himself. this whole tragic event stinks |
The known facts are bad enough: SE piston over the sea at night in engine and airframe icing conditions during the winter with a passenger on board. This alone tells me all I need to know about the pilot. He was an accident waiting to happen. We will know in due course the licence status and legality of the flight. Speculation is a waste of time. It doesn't make the decision to go any more reasonable. What is legal is not always wise - and that is not an argument for tighter regs, it is an argument for exercising good judgement. Clearly lacking in this flight.
|
Sala's agent Mark McKay, son of Willie Mcay, also an agent:
Sala's agent, Mark McKay, made his first statement since the footballer went missing, saying that he wanted to "express my sadness and that of my families" over the "tragic events". "I knew Emiliano well, he was a wonderful person and I count myself fortunate to have known him," he said. Mr Mckay added that the plane was "not owned in any way or part by either myself or any member of my family". He said he began looking into arranging a private flight to take him to Nantes after his medical and signing in Cardiff on Saturday, at the footballer's request. The plane was meant to remain in Nantes until he was due to return to the Welsh city on Tuesday, he added. |
Originally Posted by rr84c
(Post 10368629)
...with no valid US CPL or IR |
Originally Posted by EESDL
(Post 10368640)
BBC News reports that player - or his agent - arranged the flight himself. this whole tragic event stinks Let's go on the facts as they emerge and draw our conclusions in a manner respectful of AAIB process (as well as respective French and Argentinian counterparts) and the high standards of stewardship that this forum is well capable of and has excelled at in the past. In a word - pause. There has been a tragedy with loss of life, circumstances that lead up to the accident are still unfolding. Nobody's officially broken the law yet. Situation on-going. Auxtank |
Well, let's be the professionals here and not jump to conclusions based on media reports - after all even Aunty Beeb is a media outlet - and these days - with journalistic integrity beginning to resemble the rest of them. Let's go on the facts as they emerge and draw our conclusions in a manner respectful of AAIB process (as well as respective French and Argentinian counterparts) and the high standards of stewardship that this forum is well capable of and has excelled at in the past. In a word - pause. There has been a tragedy with loss of life, circumstances that lead up to the accident are still unfolding. Nobody's officially broken the law yet. Situation on-going. Auxtank |
Now it does start to get murky. My questions would be 1) Who did Mark McKay approach for what now appears to be a charter? 2) Was the owner of the aircraft approached or a 3rd party who arranged aircraft and pilot? 3) Did the aircraft owner check the qualifications of the pilot before releasing the aircraft? 4) Did money change hands? |
Am I alone in finding that details such as 'N'-registered aircraft being operated in UK and Europe with unsuspecting passengers on a PPL are bringing back unhappy memories of Graham Hill and his last flight?
AAIB Report on accident to Piper PA-23 N6645Y |
He said he began looking into arranging a private flight to take him to Nantes after his medical and signing in Cardiff on Saturday, at the footballer's request. Mr McKay added that the plane was "not owned in any way or part by either myself or any member of my family". |
The finding of this aircraft/pilot for hire interests me. If you type simple search requests into Google, the results don’t lead you to this type of aircraft, and take you to the websites of widely known operators eg netjets. I’m in the UK and using a Uk biased search engine. To find similar aircraft to the incident subject aircraft and crew appears with an online search to be very difficult, I’ve not found one, and I’ve chartered aircraft (professionally) in the past. NB the above is based on the assumption that a search for a commercial fee paying operation was made. The incident flight may not have been for hire or reward, as whilst charter has been mentioned, the organisation of the flight isn’t yet known AFAIK. None of my searches turned up a ‘man with a van’ type of offering either. |
Whatever the legalities, and who arranged what for whom, the outrage is clearly rapidly rising. A non-IR legally licensed private pilot decided to take a passenger (for reward or not) in a piston single during bad weather over very cold seas. Clearly the operator allowed te pilot to use the plane and the pilot decided to execute the flight. This is worse than bad
|
Agreed; "To many of us..." but some posting here appear to be doing so without the basics of citing anything other than media reporting without any advanced aviation knowledge behind them. Just have to trust in moderators and put up with it... |
Originally Posted by clareprop
(Post 10368695)
Was it ever thus.....
Just have to trust in moderators and put up with it... |
Originally Posted by G-MILF
(Post 10368663)
As someone else has already stated above, there are only two Dave Ibbotson's in the FAA Airman's Database, both are PPL's.
Private operation is part 91 The pilot must have a FAA private pilot licence or higher. As an EU citizen he must also have an valid EASA licence as well as well as an FAA licence to operate in EU airspace. The flight must be for no remuneration pilot and aircraft. However the aircraft may be leased for remuneration by the passenger or a third party from the lessor (owner) for free use of the passenger but note the UK department of transport (not the CAA) must approve the lessor of the aircraft to lease the aircraft when it is flown in EU airspace. The regulations that apply are written by EASA and the FAA. The CAA only enforces them in UK airspace. In other EU States it is their responsibility to enforce EASA regulations. Cost sharing does not apply and is not available as it is a N registered aircraft. Any other type of operation is a public transport operation and would be contrary to both US and EU law in this case. |
I do like how you can check a pilot's credentials with the FAA - frankly a similar system in EASA land would at least allow passengers (or indeed flight schools etc) to do some of their own referencing.
|
N264DB is reported as being owned by Willie McKay ( ex Doncaster Rovers Football Agent )
Mark McKay is the son of Willie McKay, Mark is the football agent who brokered the Emiliano Sala transfer deal. Willie McKay has twin sons Paul and Jack who are Cardiff FC footballers, so I think there is a link between Willie McKay & Cardiff FC that some are trying to cover up? It looks like that a link with 2 of his son's being fellow Cardiff FC footballers & his other son being the Football Agent for Sala puts a few pointers towards the whole deal was very much arranged within the McKay Stable. |
Originally Posted by vanHorck
(Post 10368691)
Whatever the legalities, and who arranged what for whom, the outrage is clearly rapidly rising. A non-IR legally licensed private pilot decided to take a passenger (for reward or not) in a piston single during bad weather over very cold seas. Clearly the operator allowed te pilot to use the plane and the pilot decided to execute the flight. This is worse than bad
|
Originally Posted by piperboy84
(Post 10368725)
How do we know he wasn’t instrument rated? |
Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1
(Post 10368724)
N264DB is reported as being owned by Willie McKay ( ex Doncaster Rovers Football Agent )
Mark McKay is the son of Willie McKay, Mark is the football agent who brokered the Emiliano Sala transfer deal. Willie McKay has twin sons Paul and Jack who are Cardiff FC footballers, so I think there is a link between Willie McKay & Cardiff FC that some are trying to cover up? It looks like that a link with 2 of his son's being fellow Cardiff FC footballers & his other son being the Football Agent for Sala puts a few pointers towards the whole deal was very much arranged within the McKay Stable. |
He’s right, a trust is the legal owner. |
Interesting connections which can be verified. But earlier Mark McKay stated that the plane was not owned by himself or any member of his family. Who is telling the truth - or is the family so rich one member doesn't know what another owns |
Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1
(Post 10368724)
N264DB is reported (i.e. speculation) as being owned by Willie McKay ( ex Doncaster Rovers Football Agent )
Mark McKay (who disputes family ownership according to a previous post) is the son of Willie McKay, Mark is the football agent who brokered the Emiliano Sala transfer deal. Willie McKay has twin sons Paul and Jack who are Cardiff FC footballers, so I think (= your speculation) there is a link between Willie McKay & Cardiff FC that some are trying to cover up? It looks like (= speculation) that a link with 2 of his son's being fellow Cardiff FC footballers & his other son being the Football Agent for Sala puts a few pointers towards the whole deal was very much arranged within the McKay Stable. At the end of the day, does it matter who "arranged" the flight and whether money was involved or not? It was the PIC who could have taken the right decision at the right time not to carry out the flight. As regards IR or not, that question is also answered in the previous posts. |
I think it does matter because there are parties involved that owe a duty of care to their client/player. There are parties involved that have a duty to not take actions that may invalidate their insurance cover. My prophecy is a good pay day for the lawyers. |
Questions have been asked on PPRUNE if Cardiff FC had taken out a life policy on Sala, the same could be asked of the McKay stable?
|
Originally Posted by vanHorck
(Post 10368691)
Whatever the legalities, and who arranged what for whom, the outrage is clearly rapidly rising. A non-IR legally licensed private pilot decided to take a passenger (for reward or not) in a piston single during bad weather over very cold seas. Clearly the operator allowed te pilot to use the plane and the pilot decided to execute the flight. This is worse than bad
|
Originally Posted by anchorhold
(Post 10368757)
Questions have been asked on PPRUNE if Cardiff FC had taken out a life policy on Sala, the same could be asked of the McKay stable?
McKay was not Sala's agent. |
Pour encourager les autres
Single engine cross channel (and any other overwater) flight can go very wrong. We have had a sad reminder after a hiatus of losses allowing complacency to set in.
Sea state and water temperature can be every bit as important as atmospheric conditions in planning overwater flights. |
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
(Post 10368356)
Originally Posted by Cambridge172
(Post 10368340)
According to one US aviation database, although the Owner Trustee was Southern Aircraft Consulting, the actual UK owner was a Ms Fay Keely of Coolflourish Limited, Mansfield
She appears to be an accountant and not necessarily the beneficial owner of the aircraft. Yes, she's an accountant, but that doesn't preclude owning an aircraft. Interestingly, Cool Flourish Ltd owned Gamston-based Cherokee Six G-FAVS from 2012 to 2017. N264DB was also based at Gamston. |
On the basis that earlier reports, of the aircraft failing (three times) to get airborne are true, the passenger and Pilot have clearly not been paying attention to "the signs" from the outside world.
Why would you send a voicemail saying you were so concerned, but still make the journey? |
Originally Posted by airpolice
(Post 10368761)
Why would they?
McKay was not Sala's agent. |
Originally Posted by rr84c
(Post 10368729)
There are only two David Ibbotsons in the FAA Airmen registry (which is public information), and neither has an Instrument Rating. One is a UK-based pilot. You can't legally fly a US-registered plane in France on a UK licence (even though both are EASA) - hence he's not properly licensed.
You are aware, are you not, that one can opt out of having your personal details published on the FAA Airman website? |
Pause a minute
Let us break this down, one bit at a time. 1) The fact the passenger was a well-paid footballer has no direct bearing on the flight or how he chooses to travel. James May is a well-paid tv personality who flies himself in a single and the Duke of Edinburgh chooses to drive himself. If someone suggested this flight when a more redundant option might be considered appropriate that is far outside the realm of pilot speculation. 2) It is entirely reasonable in itself for a private pilot to fly a single engine aircraft from Nantes to Cardiff, and to take a passenger. And with a valid night rating to do so at night. I personally happen to fly a twin and have taken my IR but I have many times crossed the channel in a single, and not just from Lydd to Le Touquet, carrying friends and family, in the past and I expect virtually every qualified pilot here has done so. 3) A PA46 is far from an entry level aircraft and is eminently suitable for such a flight. 4) So there are perfectly reasonable and legal circumstances under which that plane on that route with those people on board might have flown that route. So let’s not damn the whole thing. 5) Now, it sounds like the pilot may not have had an IR rating and was flying into weather where VFR conditions were not certain. That’s not good. If in fact the pilot was flying in conditions for which he was not qualified, that is covered by existing legislation and no further regulation is needed. 6) It sounds like snow and icing conditions were likely and the aircraft had basic de-icing but may or may not have been cleared for severe icing or FKI. This seems at least like poor judgement of conditions. 7) The flight was planned at night over a long stretch of open winter water and the assumption is immersion suits weren’t worn. That was lacking caution. 8) It seems quite possible that this was a commercial flight conducted at best on the margins of what was legally permissible. Whilst legality has no direct bearing on the intrinsic safety of a flight it does have a bearing on the passenger expectations and likelihood of pressure to continue into conditions beyond either a pilot’s legal qualification or prudent judgement. Again rules exist to prevent such flights. 9) It seems likely given the absence of a mayday that control was lost suddenly quite possibly due to a combination of icing and pilot failing to handle the conditions. 10) If conditions ahead or at the time were less than favourable a prudent decision to abort and divert to one of the Channel Islands might have avoided disaster. 11) The decision to fly at only 5000 ft (didn’t check Class A base) and to descend was not necessarily the best. 12) Most of us would probably agree if even some of the assumptions are true that the flight was not simply unfortunate but unwise and quite possibly an avoidable accident. Tragically if, as it seems, there were infringements the pilot is not in a condition to face prosecution. And his famous and unfortunate passenger is not around to comment on his knowledge of the decision process. This is not a reason to jump on a press bandwagon to call for more regulation or assert that all single engine flights should be banned etc. it’s like the hysteria when someone 5 times over the limit driving at 90 in a cul de sac kills someone there is a clamour to reduce alcohol limits or speed limits. If some of the above assumptions prove correct then we should all calmly say various regulations exist to reduce the risk of such incidents and tragically this flight seems to have been conducted in contravention of regulations. But that’s just my take. It’s still tragic for all involved. What we should all remember is with slightly different circumstances it might have all been ok. I would be very surprised if any pilot at some point hasn’t taken a decision thinking it will probably be ok, and fortunately it was. |
Originally Posted by 3wheels
(Post 10368785)
You are aware, are you not, that one can opt out of having your personal details published on the FAA Airman website? |
Originally Posted by patagonia1
(Post 10368760)
He was IR(r) qualified or at least he used to be and renewed it for his jump flying activities. He was a seasoned jump pilot and had ferried planes regularly to dropzones across Europe and further afield, typically Dorner G92s , Grand Caravans etc. He was a competent pilot so the speculation about his abilities are totally unfounded as I flew with him on a variety of occasions and he was both professional and competent, including in IMC.
Even if you are competent, you have a responsibility to make your passengers aware of the risks of single engine over water at night. |
Originally Posted by runway30
(Post 10368806)
I don’t care how competent you are, if you aren’t current then you may not be as competent as you think you are. We don’t know at the moment. Even if you are competent, you have a responsibility to make your passengers aware of the risks of single engine over water at night. Yes, there are questions to be answered about how an individual performed this flight (as PIC) but we should wait on the HARD facts. |
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