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Originally Posted by pilotmike
(Post 11133856)
I would concur with anyone disputing that a Commercial Pilot's Licence simply allows the holder to be paid for their flying, and that it has no bearing on their ability to fly safely, especially under adverse conditions.
Training for - and passing the tests - for gaining a Commercial licence give the far greater knowledge and skills to Commercial pilots, allowing them to make better, safer judgements, especially under commercial pressures. All Commercial pilots are tested thoroughly for their theoretical knowledge and their flying ability, as well as judgement to a greater degree than a mere Private pilot's licence. Even the Class 1 medical is a far higher hurdle to pass than the lesser requirements of a Private pilot. Many perfectly able Private pilots are weeded out at the Class 1 medical as being unfit for Commercial flying. Otherwise, what would be the point of requiring Commercial pilots to undertake an enhanced medical, as well as a long and arduous course of study, as well as an in-depth course of flying training in order to demonstrate the flying skills required to a considerably greater level than that required for the PPL? The theory course and written exams, as well as the flying course and test(s) cost at least £20,000 and 8 months of dedication and hard work. Many prospective Commercial pilots invest far more time and money than that. Gaining a Commercial Pilots Licence is sufficiently difficult that many never achieve it, despite putting their heart and soul into it. It is NOT an easily gained qualification, for the avoidance of doubt. If it were merely a paperwork exercise, as has been reported, wouldn't it be far simpler all round for anyone wishing to be paid for their flying simply to stump up say £20,000 to buy a shiny new Commercial licence, then operate with impunity and without the greater knowledge and skills required for the Commercial environment? Wouldn't that be simpler? For sure! As safe? Definitely not! Anyone suggesting it is merely a paperwork issue would either be ignorant of the facts or misrepresenting them. It is interesting that the jury in the recent Henderson case apparently aligned with these sentiments and found the defendant guilty, despite suggestions that inadequate licencing and qualifications weren't relevant. To put the above into context, when I flew aeroplanes and helicopters as a Private pilot, I believed I was a good pilot, about as safe, knowledgeable and experienced as could be, able to undertake almost any flight completely safely - coincidentally with similar hours to David Ibbotson's reported hours. Then I underwent the ATPL training, comprised of studying for 15 difficult written exams, flying training, flight exams etc, and blowing £40+k in the process. If it gave me just one thing, it was the knowledge that I didn't know it all. It taught me that there were vast areas of potential risk that I was previously either unaware of - or more likely in denial: that I needed to be more careful than I had ever realised or admitted before, factors that needed more careful consideration than I had ever before believed possible. Mercifully I learned that I had SO much more to learn about inclement weather, commercial pressures, Aviation Law, and taking tough decisions when I had doubts about the aircraft's serviceability, that the ATPL training has thankfully kept me safe to this day. "There but by the grace of God". To that extent, I find myself fully supporting Katamarino's sentiments on the true value of Commercial Pilot's Licence. It demonstrates a level of knowledge, ability, experience and competence that merely holding a Private Pilot's Licence does not. It is more than a paperwork issue. (https://assets.publishing.service.go...LAWX_08-21.pdf) With a crew of 2 ATPL holders and a Commander who lectures on Safety Management Systems they managed to get themselves out of shape. Whilst I accept that none of us are immune from a bad day at the office, I have been critical of the Commanders actions and wondered whether any superior skills over a PPL holder were demonstrated on the day? If not, then does the fact that the CAA seem to have deemed it appropriate that no action needed to be taken against the Commander, are the CAA themselves indirectly supporting the position that there really is no difference between the skill set of a private pilot and professional pilot licence holder? |
Originally Posted by Undecided
(Post 11134338)
I agree with the sentiments of the PilotMikes' post however, having followed this story and thread with interest, I would welcome views on some recent incidents with Commercial pilots at the controls.
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Originally Posted by biscuit74
(Post 11134108)
'pilotmike' and 'katamarino' - I entirely agree with your comments with respect to the Commercial Pilot Licence and the testing, training and extra discipline required. I am an experienced private pilot; my partner, also originally a private pilot, became a CPL holder several years ago, The style and professionalism of her flying impresses me, and gives me confidence in her capability and judgement. I still have more flying hours than she has, in a wider variety of aircraft and circumstances, but I'd rate her flying judgement over mine any day. The careful professional way she prepares for sorties - her commercial work is not airline flying - is a pleasure to watch.
I wondered beforehand whether a CPL would really make any difference - it most certainly does. It is in my view a significant step up and beyond the PPL level, professional though I try to be in my approach. |
An element of CPL training is the decision to decline a flight for any of several worthy reasons. A PPL may learn this by osmosis over time, and good for them if they do. A CPL is taught, and examined on the topic for the license. I have seen many occasions when a PPL appeared eager to fly a flight that a CPL was reluctant to fly).
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Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins
(Post 11133515)
Have there been previous prosecutions by the CAA or convictions for similar activity? There may have been but it took the poor Sala family to suffer this avoidable tragedy to raise the profile of this type of activity. I hope it has an impact on public awareness as well as the CAA's policy of dealing with dodgy customers. I am sure we have all known a few
40 months at “Her Majesty Pleasure”. Had previous aviation convictions |
The same Robert Murgatroyd that helped a well known football agent and or the agents son with an aircraft purchase and the management of illegal charter operations.This whole rotten affair is full of individuals that have been and are up to their ears in dishonest illegal aviation operations and as I said previously a number of them were listed as witnesses in the Henderson trial. The CAA are so close to these crooks and yet nothing will probably be done about it.
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Originally Posted by Midlifec
(Post 11134488)
The same Robert Murgatroyd that helped a well known football agent and or the agents son with an aircraft purchase and the management of illegal charter operations.This whole rotten affair is full of individuals that have been and are up to their ears in dishonest illegal aviation operations and as I said previously a number of them were listed as witnesses in the Henderson trial. The CAA are so close to these crooks and yet nothing will probably be done about it.
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Originally Posted by Midlifec
(Post 11134488)
The same Robert Murgatroyd that helped a well known football agent and or the agents son with an aircraft purchase and the management of illegal charter operations.This whole rotten affair is full of individuals that have been and are up to their ears in dishonest illegal aviation operations and as I said previously a number of them were listed as witnesses in the Henderson trial. The CAA are so close to these crooks and yet nothing will probably be done about it.
Jack |
Originally Posted by Midlifec
(Post 11134488)
The same Robert Murgatroyd that helped a well known football agent and or the agents son with an aircraft purchase and the management of illegal charter operations.This whole rotten affair is full of individuals that have been and are up to their ears in dishonest illegal aviation operations and as I said previously a number of them were listed as witnesses in the Henderson trial. The CAA are so close to these crooks and yet nothing will probably be done about it.
Start with the “cost sharing” rules & regulations. Refine the ANO etc to clearly explain in unequivocal terms with anti avoidance legislation what “hire & reward” means & confine ‘grey charters’ to the dustbin of history. |
It is difficult to put it all together but insurers succeeded in doing so with regard to a claim presented by one owner, when the claim was denied no appeal or fuss was made- probably in an attempt to stay beneath the authorities radar. The CAA need to grow some balls on this subject, listen to the reports, build some factual databases and start knocking on doors- it can be done.
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Originally Posted by Midlifec
(Post 11134506)
It is difficult to put it all together but insurers succeeded in doing so with regard to a claim presented by one owner, when the claim was denied no appeal or fuss was made- probably in an attempt to stay beneath the authorities radar. The CAA need to grow some balls on this subject, listen to the reports, build some factual databases and start knocking on doors- it can be done.
ProsecutionsThe Civil Aviation Authority is tasked by the Department for Transport to investigate and prosecute breaches of aviation safety rules and some aviation related consumer protection and health and safety requirements.I have little faith in new, revised or additional legislation. What’s there is usually adequate, it just requires the resources to apply it and as we know those resources are limited. A classic example is UK firearms legislation that has steadily enlarged and become more restrictive since it was first enacted in the 1920s. The law abiding observe it and bear its burden, the criminals ignore it and we still have the one off nutters who commit atrocity. There are ways of making life more difficult for those who attempt to evade the legislation but it would mean further restriction and considerable intrusion on the activities of those who observe the law. YS |
Expand the legislation so that those who organise/participate/carried on “grey charters” have committed an offence.
Some might say that this is harsh, but adequate protocols need to be established so that such activity simply evaporates away. |
Originally Posted by parkfell
(Post 11134572)
Expand the legislation so that those who organise/participate/carried on “grey charters” have committed an offence.
Some might say that this is harsh, but adequate protocols need to be established so that such activity simply evaporates away. whilst I fully understand your sentiments I would caution to be very careful what you wish for. It would appear on first sight that Sala would have committed an offence under the regime you propose. Is that what you would have intended? There are forums on the internet where lawyers and those interested in legal matters hang out, you may wish to ask for views on what you have in mind. Then there’s the Secret Barrister’s blog, it does give an insight into why the law so often appears inadequate and how difficult it can be to fix it; his books aren’t bad either whether or not you agree with his politics. I am afraid that the only answer is for the industry to “grass up” offenders and then be prepared to give evidence against them if the case comes to court..That can be quite difficult. YS |
The best witness would be a passenger stepping out of the aircraft. Asked the questions: "Did you pay for that flight and if so, who to and how much?" Could be very revealing.
The CAA regularly used to attend major functions such as race meetings and check flights out; how often is this now done? |
I started off my flying career with a PPL, just for pleasure as I was told at school I was too stupid to be a pilot.
After many years of doing it for fun and when I had the hours, hating the job I was in a decided to try to be a pilot. I thought I was a good, knowledgeable pilot. I did the BCPL course thinking they were right wot they told me in school, what a step up from PPL stuff! After that I did the instructor course, same thing, realised I knew nowt even after doing the CPL exams. Learning to pass an exam and having the knowledge to teach it, world apart. Many hours later of instructing, time for the multi IR. By this time I thought I could fly an airplane. What a shock, the toughest thing I ever did in aviation, it sure “perfected” your handling, situation awareness and planning etc . And so it should. Getting a job and doing the type ratings were relatively ok after that, well not the getting a job! A PPL holder doing a grey charter is no way trained and rarely capable of handling what can be thrown at them. I missed my instructor training, just, when it could be done on a PPL, I was wound up I had to spend my money getting the BCPL first. Looking back it was a change for the good. Now it seems PPL holders can teach etc, backwards step? Same with all this Wingly thing, PPLs advertising charters! |
Originally Posted by Yellow Sun
(Post 11134579)
Parkfell,
…. It would appear on first sight that Sala would have committed an offence under the regime you propose. Is that what you would have intended?….. ….I am afraid that the only answer is for the industry to “grass up” offenders and then be prepared to give evidence against them if the case comes to court..That can be quite difficult. YS It is only with significant publicity to any new legislation would the public become aware, and put them on notice that they must play their part in not participating in “grey charters”. The “protocols” to be followed. 1st offence: simply a warning. 2nd offence et seq: get their collar felt. |
Originally Posted by simmple
(Post 11134591)
…... Now it seems PPL holders can teach etc, backwards step? Same with all this Wingly thing, PPLs advertising charters!
At the 700 hour point sufficient non approved training to pass a F170a & undertake the CPL GFTs & IRT under CAP54. Ground school attendance was not required; you simply applied to sit the CPL ‘Nav block & the ‘Tech block’ exams. PPSC correspondence course was an option. When the BCPL came in, PPL club instructors were granted grandfather rights for a BCPL restricted (to club instructing) PPL could always instruct in a club environment but not for payments. As for “this Wingly thing” the CAA need to re-examine all aspects of this style of operation… |
Don't want to go to far off topic, but can a PPL still instruct? On my recently gained NPPL each entry in my log book had to be signed by an instructor along with their number.
And getting back on topic, I wonder how many passengers are aware of the position they are in? That the pilot isn't a professional? The a/c isn't operated by an approved organisation? That they are un-insured? What about their employers? |
but can a PPL still instruct? |
A PPL holder doing a grey charter is no way trained and rarely capable of handling what can be thrown at them. If I take three people I don’t know for a flight in my aircraft, for example flying veterans and their helpers to Project Propeller, and don’t charge them, that is deemed to be legal and, by implication, to offer an acceptable level of safety. If I charge them for the flight illegally, it doesn’t change the level of the danger they face even though I would be committing an offence. |
Other key questions.
Who was this Fay Keely, apparently the owner of the aircraft ? Why did they buy it ? Were they current on it ? Was it just for their private use, and if so what records are there of them using it themselves ? The Malibu is a large aircraft for someone unknown to have just for their personal and private use. Were they not equally in it with Henderson ? Separately, and something I have asked before, why charter in the first place, at considerable cost. There was a commercial KLM connection, Nantes to Amsterdam, and then nicely Amsterdam to Cardiff, at pretty much the same evening times as this charter was operating. If the football player "had to be back" for the following morning, that was the obvious way to go. The cost of even a business class one way ticket would have been a fraction of the charter cost, and much more comfortable and reliable. |
Originally Posted by WHBM
(Post 11134673)
Who was this Fay Keely, apparently the owner of the aircraft ? Why did they buy it ? Were they current on it ? Was it just for their private use, and if so what records are there of them using it themselves ? The Malibu is a large aircraft for someone unknown to have just for their personal and private use. Were they not equally in it with Henderson ?
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Originally Posted by WHBM
(Post 11134673)
Other key questions.
Who was this Fay Keely, apparently the owner of the aircraft ? Why did they buy it ? Were they current on it ? Was it just for their private use, and if so what records are there of them using it themselves ? The Malibu is a large aircraft for someone unknown to have just for their personal and private use. Were they not equally in it with Henderson ? Separately, and something I have asked before, why charter in the first place, at considerable cost. There was a commercial KLM connection, Nantes to Amsterdam, and then nicely Amsterdam to Cardiff, at pretty much the same evening times as this charter was operating. If the football player "had to be back" for the following morning, that was the obvious way to go. The cost of even a business class one way ticket would have been a fraction of the charter cost, and much more comfortable and reliable. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-47626855 |
The Coroner’s Inquest is scheduled for February 2022. I hope that various CAA employees are required to attend where M’Learned Friends, with aviation experience can ask salient questions as the regulations & enforcement. Others need to explain their involvement although I suspect unlike a Public Inquiry the Inquest will confine itself more narrowly.
The second Fatal Accident Inquiry in Scotland I attended, as a witness, concerned a solo student pilot killed. High speed exit out of cloud near Sanqhar, Dumfriesshire. It would be fair to say the CAA employee as a witness (regulatory rôle) wasn’t exactly looking forward to the witness stand. Verdict: Accidental death, but that didn’t prevent the family pursuing a civil claim at the High Court Edinburgh. The whole experience taught me that you must justify every single step you take when involved in aviation, or for that matter any other activity in life. |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 11134584)
The best witness would be a passenger stepping out of the aircraft. Asked the questions: "Did you pay for that flight and if so, who to and how much?" Could be very revealing.
The CAA regularly used to attend major functions such as race meetings and check flights out; how often is this now done? |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 11134697)
With regard to your second point it would appear the use of a charter, rather than commercial flights, had for some reason become the norm for some involved in this whole sad story..
Pilot and aircraft owner etc paid a fee, but Henderson was apparently making a living out of it as well. McKay paid Henderson, but doesn't sound the sort of character to have paid for it out of his life savings. So who was paying him even more for each of these flights ? Cardiff football club ? Sala himself ? Skimmed off the £15m "transfer fee" ? |
Follow the money
Originally Posted by WHBM
(Post 11134947)
One wonders where the money actually originated.
Pilot and aircraft owner etc paid a fee, but Henderson was apparently making a living out of it as well. McKay paid Henderson, but doesn't sound the sort of character to have paid for it out of his life savings. So who was paying him even more for each of these flights ? Cardiff football club ? Sala himself ? Skimmed off the £15m "transfer fee" ? The only way to deal with the problem is via a multi-agency approach and the tactic of following the money. YS |
Originally Posted by WHBM
(Post 11134947)
One wonders where the money actually originated.
Pilot and aircraft owner etc paid a fee, but Henderson was apparently making a living out of it as well. McKay paid Henderson, but doesn't sound the sort of character to have paid for it out of his life savings. So who was paying him even more for each of these flights ? Cardiff football club ? Sala himself ? Skimmed off the £15m "transfer fee" ? |
Not trying to defend grey charters but I think there are probably many highly experienced pilots who fly very safely but who have never needed a CPL because they don’t want to earn money from flying.
Agreed as long as they don’t peddle their wares as a professional pilot to an unsuspecting public |
Originally Posted by simmple
(Post 11135142)
Not trying to defend grey charters but I think there are probably many highly experienced pilots who fly very safely but who have never needed a CPL because they don’t want to earn money from flying.
Agreed as long as they don’t peddle their wares as a professional pilot to an unsuspecting public A professional pilot will get airborne provided it is safe to do so in difficult conditions as invariably they are well versed in operating in such conditions. Six monthly simulator sessions (OPC/LPC) & yearly line check, plus days when the FOI decides to observe from the jump seat. Or occasionally an AAIB inspector observing the operation to gleam more information following an event which has taken their interest. A PPL/IR although experienced and has demonstrated competency in IFR will probably not get airborne in a maximum crosswind on a horrible night, because (wisely) commercial pressure does not exist. A yearly IR renewal & bi-annual check with a FI. The professional pilot has far greater scrutiny as to their competency than a PPL. |
Originally Posted by parkfell
(Post 11135155)
A comparison (not exhaustive) of a professional & private pilot:
A professional pilot will get airborne provided it is safe to do so in difficult conditions as invariably they are well versed in operating in such conditions. Six monthly simulator sessions (OPC/LPC) & yearly line check, plus days when the FOI decides to observe from the jump seat. Or occasionally an AAIB inspector observing the operation to gleam more information following an event which has taken their interest. A PPL/IR although experienced and has demonstrated competency in IFR will probably not get airborne in a maximum crosswind on a horrible night, because (wisely) commercial pressure does not exist. A yearly IR renewal & bi-annual check with a FI. The professional pilot has far greater scrutiny as to their competency than a PPL. The killer of Sala did not have an IR or even a night rating! I do take your point though. Skill and legality can be discussed like remain and leave with no definitive answer or should I say no one agreeing |
Originally Posted by simmple
(Post 11135159)
Back on topic.
The killer of Sala did not have an IR or even a night rating! I do take your point though. Skill and legality can be discussed like remain and leave with no definitive answer or should I say no one agreeing the “Swiss cheese holes accident model” would not have aligned. Although the pilot did hold a current IR(R) [IMC Rating] which is only valid in UK airspace, his EASA licence was not current, and no night rating. Sentencing of David Henderson scheduled for 12 November. Robert Murgatroyd was sentenced to 40 months in 2019. His three passengers survived. |
Originally Posted by parkfell
(Post 11135343)
Had it not been for the Carbon Monoxide poisoning, & possible AP intermittent fault, I suspect that there is every likelyhood that
the “Swiss cheese holes accident model” would not have aligned. Although the pilot did hold a current IR(R) [IMC Rating] which is only valid in UK airspace, his EASA licence was not current, and no night rating. |
Originally Posted by parkfell
(Post 11135343)
Had it not been for the Carbon Monoxide poisoning, & possible AP intermittent fault, I suspect that there is every likelyhood that
the “Swiss cheese holes accident model” would not have aligned. . We’ll never know but there’s still more than enough holes to perfectly align for an incident on this trip with the known issues without any CO issues that may have contributed. |
Originally Posted by Jonzarno
(Post 11135353)
If the passenger had known of the state of the aircraft, the qualifications of the pilot and understood what a grey charter is: would he have gone within a country mile of this journey?
Sala was likely under ‘commercial pressure’ too. He was due in Cardiff for his first training session on a multi million pound deal. It’s reasonable to assume he wouldn’t want to let down everyone in the football side of the chain, particularly as the trip was a private one to say goodbye to previous Nantes players, rather than part of the commercial deal. If he knew might he have thought ok it’s a bit poor, but it got me here ok and it’s only two hours and I need to be in Cardiff early tomorrow morning. Would the man on the street roll the dice as flying is so safe? |
I would suggest that if there was the will to stop bent charters, it could be stopped.
Perhaps some strong lobbying? I'm sure a lot of pilots on here know what, when and who, but don't like the idea of "grassing" Suggestions? |
Originally Posted by Jonzarno
(Post 11135353)
If the passenger had known of the state of the aircraft, the qualifications of the pilot and understood what a grey charter is: would he have gone within a country mile of this journey?
There is no shade of white in these “grey charters”. They are unlawful. In the short term, the CAA need better sources of information, a ‘CRIMESTOPPERS’ number ( an email address exists) and forensic accountants. In the long term until the politicians “come on board” not a lot will change. Beef up the legislation & penalties on illegal charters. Some of the wording in Terrorism Acts might be a useful starting point where even possibly knowing and not reporting suspicions is an offence [‘light blue touch paper and retire’ moment on my part] |
Originally Posted by jumpseater
(Post 11135395)
Interesting one.
Sala was likely under ‘commercial pressure’ too. He was due in Cardiff for his first training session on a multi million pound deal. It’s reasonable to assume he wouldn’t want to let down everyone in the football side of the chain, particularly as the trip was a private one to say goodbye to previous Nantes players, rather than part of the commercial deal. If he knew might he have thought ok it’s a bit poor, but it got me here ok and it’s only two hours and I need to be in Cardiff early tomorrow morning. Would the man on the street roll the dice as flying is so safe? Of course it doesn’t get past my earlier assertion that if I fly friends for free on my PPL/IR it doesn’t make me or them any safer than if I was charging them for the flight: same pilot, same aircraft, same risks. FTAOD that’s not intended as any kind of defence for grey charters! |
" Some of the wording in Terrorism Acts might be a useful starting point where even possibly knowing and not reporting suspicions is an offence [‘light blue touch paper and retire’ moment on my part] "
Now that could be 'challenging' to say the least ! I can see all sorts of issues around 'knowing'. and proof. Certainly encouraging a reporting cultures in areas where there is a clear safety element might be feasible, though I feel the 'authorities' have already shot themselves in the foot with their rather silly campaign to encourage us to shop anyone who we think may be illegally transporting immigrants or drugs. Apart from it being a rather nasty 'shop your neighbour' idea, the folk I saw explaining this showed considerable ignorance of flight aircraft flying and took no interest whatever in real aircraft crime - such as the thefts of Rotax engines from hangars across the country. Clearly not part of their tasks and targets! So I suspect many pilots would simply ignore all this. Not worth the hassle and aggro. I entirely agree; some serious forensic accounting would be a great help, in this and many other areas. Far too many dubious activities in the UK are hidden away; I suspect many accountants and auditors are well aware of where the dodge parts are - some useful tactical blindness occurs no doubt ! |
Originally Posted by jumpseater
(Post 11135395)
Interesting one.
Sala was likely under ‘commercial pressure’ too. He was due in Cardiff for his first training session on a multi million pound deal. It’s reasonable to assume he wouldn’t want to let down everyone in the football side of the chain, particularly as the trip was a private one to say goodbye to previous Nantes players, rather than part of the commercial deal. If he knew might he have thought ok it’s a bit poor, but it got me here ok and it’s only two hours and I need to be in Cardiff early tomorrow morning. Would the man on the street roll the dice as flying is so safe? Like jonzarno I suspect that sort of thinking may well have entered into Sala’s decision making.. |
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