Light Aircraft Crash in Oxfordshire
 

Man dies in Oxfordshire plane crash - BBC News Anyone know anything?

The crash site is on the top of the Chiltern ridge very close to the M40, another scud running CFIT ?

Quite possibly. :(

Poor man, it must be terrifying going down because of the weather or to be forced down in that weather. Damned shame.

the viz in the photos on the BBC news webpage would suggest going home on the bus unless your IR is up to speed.

You wouldn't fly for fun on a day like today would you?:confused:

Miserable day in Oxford today. Not a good day to go flying.

No, and I will be aurprised if he was. If not an IF qualified pilot in a suitably equiped aircraft then he should not have been up in the weather and I very much suspect, given the forecast and actual that he was so qualified and something went wrong, until the report is out or someone who knows the pilot well puts a comment I would leave it there!

Some more info for those who may have known the pilot.
 

FYI. Chris at Turweston kindly posted the following information on FB. "For those that do not know, the pilot we lost was longtime Turweston resident Dave Norris who was flying Pa30 G-ATMT. :(

Very sad news. Dave was I believe either a current or past examiner and the PA 30 should have been up to job. We await the AAIB.

An observation that may or may not be related to this sad accident. The 326' "Stokenchurch Mast" is very close to the Reserve.

It is - and is well known for being hard to see in poor or marginal visibility. It seems likely that this was significant in the pilot's mind , whatever other problems were going on in the aeroplane at the time of the accident.

Of course, there is unlikely to be anything to indicate what was in the pilot's mind immediately prior to the accident - so the AAIB are likely to be unable to say much about that.

G

Highly qualified and able pilot operating in appalling weather in a fully IFR equipped aircraft. Normally there would be no need to stay "Vmc below" flying towards high ground and a 1000ft mast - in fog!!
There must be a lot more to this and, hopefully, the AAIB will be able to decipher what it is.
Sincere condolences.

All due condolences of course but I could not help noticing that the aircraft does not display any de-icing equipment on any of the photos available online (including GINFO). One can only hope that icing did not play a part in events.

I am sure the AAIB will do their usual excellent job of deducing a cause and I add my sympathies to those who knew the pilot.

The crash location appears to on the very edge of the Chilterns overlooking the low ground towards Oxford. For anyone who knows the M40 it's on the left at the start of the cutting as you head South towards Stokenchurch.

An obvious place for a CFIT in bad weather but a coincidence if it was icing.

I did a quick check - the outside air temperatures at Oxford and Cranfield around that time were about +8/9 deg C so I doubt airframe icing is a factor in this accident.

The a/c took off from Turweston, but what was the destination & purpose of the flight. I would assume a PA-30 was IFR equipped and it seems the pilot was IFR experienced. How far is the crash site from takeoff, and is it in the direction of the planned flight? If the weather was as bad as is reported one would assume an IFR flight was planned. I remember the SE performance on PA-30 was not great, but that was with 3 up. Solo should have been better. Still curious as to what might have happened. Over to you, AAIB.

IFR question for one of you folks that fly down south. Do NATS or the controlling authority for that area have "pre-canned" low level IFR routes between airfields in the Southeast of England similar to Tower en Route clearances in the US? and if so where could I find them.

In the US I have flown IFR over fog, and in cloud and ATC confirmed my destination was clear. In days before I was qualified for IFR I have been uncertain of my position at low level in lowering cloud near the Chilterns and the M40, with the top of the TV tower actually lost in the cloud. Benson was helpful, confirmed my position and once finding the M40 simply flew low along the road toward the East until Wycombe Air Park appeared on the right of the motorway. The Chilterns are well known for orographic cloud when the wind blows against those hills.

I am wondering if Dave Norris was receiving any help from controllers at Benson....or anywhere.

Mary I am not sure that Benson would have been able to provide a radar service especially on a Sunday - Brize and Farnborough would but I am not sure down to what level.

We don't have pre- canned low level IFR routes in here so far as I know except for departure from major airports -eg. the "Juliet" departure from Luton and possibly heli routes within the London CTR/CTA.

Some speculation on other forums about non-published IFR let downs into Chalgrove- these could be GPS based, or based on the WCO NDB or the CPT VOR/DME if you knew how to use them.

There are definitely no IFR heli routes in the London area!

Radar units will sometimes be able to provide a radar service in Class G airspace (very often with limitations) but below MSA, terrain clearance is solely the pilot's responsibility and ATC will normally remind pilots of that fact.

Shytorque, I'm trying to figure out this unfortunate gentlemans options for making the flight in the conditions on the day where he left Turweston and headed south to an as yet unknown destination. Im assuming if it was on an IFR clearance this would involve climbing for airway M605 (8500) entering the bottom of the London TMA at 4500 over Thame. Or if it was flying IMC without being on a clearance, it would be staying above the MSA but below the TMA staying lower than 2500 if his destination was south of the Heathrow centerline on a basic service if one was available. Or thirdly staying low and trying to maintain VFR.

Would that be the totality of his options for the flight?

PB24, basically, yes (although I'm not in a position to confirm your airway route) or alternatively, below the TMA it's possible to fly not below 1,000 ft above the tallest obstacle within 5nm of track, which is slightly less than 2400 feet in that area.

The mystery seems as to why he was so low. How far is the crash site from takeoff?

About 23 nm.

How do you know he was flying low prior to the accident?

Well he obviously was at the point of the accident, and I've not heard of any report of a mayday call - which an experienced pilot might reasonably have made if things had gone wrong and he had the height, and thus time, to make it.

None of which is more than circumstantial of course.

G

Destination was Chalgrove just a few miles West of the crash site. Literally about 25 miles from Turweston. 39 or so by road. Maybe doing some kind of cloudbreak technique using GPS onto a Westerly final? Who knows.

This is my part of the world and I've flown in the area many times. The mast isn't 1000' or anything like it; it's only a little over 300' AGL and tbh if low enough to worry about hitting it, I'd be equally worried about hitting one of the many trees along the ridge.

Would there be a METAR for Benson at the time of the accident? Low lying fog is notoriously patchy but I'd expect conditions to be similar to those at Chalgrove.

Not sure if they have automatic reporting/someone to take readings on a Sunday.

Without inferring anything specific, I'll repeat something I've posted before: descent below MSA in IMC whilst not on a published approach procedure has killed a lot of pilots, some highly experienced.

Which is why now, we are taught to use a "cloud-break" by doing an instrument approach at a nearby airport / aerodrome to descend at or below your MSA, and then if (and ONLY if) safe & legal (ie: 500' rule + glide clear), continue VFR low level to your original destination - otherwise either go-around to somewhere else, or commit to land on the approach.

**I am not implying that this was in any way the cause or part cause of the accident mentioned here - just a reply to the previous poster - I'll wait for the AAIB for the verdict**

Wise words indeed!

I wonder if the Benson ILS was radiating at the time? If so, it could have guided the aircraft to a point overhead Chalgrove at about 1000ft agl.

I too am very familiar with the area, having lived there for many years before moving to France. I agree with the remarks of others about fog, orographic cloud, etc.

I remember a Cessna 182 crashed in a nearby location in the 1990s on the way to Booker. Bad weather was, I believe, a factor.

Very sad.:(

A more relevant question is how far the crash site was from his intended destination.

About 5 nm.
Also when you fly past the Stokenchurch mast, you don't see too many similarly tall trees! It's about 330ft tall!!

Sillert

The top of the tower is at 1100' + AMSL

Not commentating on this accident - we must wait for information. But many accidents have resulted from people who had "designed" instrument let downs themselves and had used them many many times before successfully.

Not sure what aids would be available at Benson but I would have though it would have been possible to set something up using the CPT VOR, WCO NDB and GPS.

Not commentating on this accident - we must wait for information. But many accidents have resulted from people who had "designed" instrument let downs themselves and had used them many many times before successfully.

Shades of Graham Hill at Elstree???

Mind you, I have done as suggested; let down on the ILS at LTN and followed the M1 to cut off to Elstree.

If I remember correctly from reading Graham Hills accident report he did not "design" any ad hoc approach he just went for it, balls to the wall, and hoped for the best, unfortunately for him and his pax it didn't work out.

Graham Hill came over the top of Barnet, apparently misidentified the lights of Borehamwood for Elstree and clipped the trees at Arkley Golf Course - I saw the wreckage the next day

It's been said previously, ATCOs at LTN were expecting him to divert to them, but 'pressonitis' got him

I recall their cars were at Elstree and it was suggested this was one reason why they 'pressonitis'.

Re this accident for info here is wx at Benson around the time of the accident.

SA 15/01/2017 14:50->
METAR EGUB 151450Z AUTO 29007KT 9999 // BKN006/// BKN014///
08/08 Q1021=
SA 15/01/2017 13:50->
METAR EGUB 151350Z AUTO 29007KT 9999 // BKN008/// BKN015///
08/07 Q1021=

Cloud base on METARs are above aerodrome level and Benson is 203 ft AMSL so the cloud base there would be in the order of 800 to 900 ft QNH. From the information I have gleaned so far the accident site would have been about 800 ft amsl.

As has been said we will have to wait for AIB for any conclusions.

Turweston, approximate crash location, and the point just to the south-east is the Stokenchurch Mast.

https://i.imgsafe.org/fe2f759e41.png

Turweston, approximate crash location, and Chalgrove.

https://i.imgsafe.org/fe2fb5c1a0.png

Chalgrove, approximate crash location, and the Stokenchurch Mast.

https://i.imgsafe.org/fe6ad0e4f2.png