There is a rear pressure bulkhead, which provides basically no resistance from something going through it. There is also a small metal lip on the back of the main deck 747-400 floor near the pressure bulkhead.
Atlas had a 747 classic get written off because the rear pressure bulkhead was punctured by improperly packaged/loaded cargo. |
I think crash investigators have to experience worse things than a CVR- including body parts etc. So I would not be scared for them. Police etc see just as bad.
The crash is a classic stall on take off with unknown cause (as yet). Note a couple of things- the idea that the climb angle was the result of excessive enthusiasm in leaving the MANPAD threat envelope is pretty silly. The pitch angle and airspeed bleed would have been terrifyingly obvious and would have totally occupied crew efforts. Also note the left wing stalls first followed by a right hand roll. Whether the latter was due to a control input is not clear but as the aircraft descends and gains speed the crew definitely have aileron authority and roll it level just before impact. So clearly the crew had working aileron linkages and used them but (a) whether the elevator/HS link was disabled or (b) it was functional but ineffective due to a rear CofG will have to await investigation. It's obvious that no professionally trained crew would allow their aircraft to get into such a dangerous attitude and airspeed configuration unless something broke. In other words, let's rule out the usual great finger pointed at pilot error. |
aqua:
It is always hard to see fellow pilots die in the line of duty. I sure hope that this video may help NTSB finding the causes for this accident. Until the last second I can only imagine them fighting against the odds... But another thing calls my attention: have you noticed that the guy inside the car filming these dramatic events, never made a sound or even an exclamation during the whole process, except for quietening his dog? Odd, very odd. |
Journalist Request
Hi Alvin. I am a journalist at a news agency trying to verify dramatic video of this tragic accident. Can you please get in touch with me? Thanks, Félim [[email protected]]
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We took off out of SNA one day and could not rotate because the MD80 was loaded with non smokers in front. We forgot the gear on climb out trying to compensate for the bad trim setting. When things go south you sometimes worry about survival and forget about fundamental things like gear. We figured it out but were over 1,000 ft before we put the gear up. Maybe they had the same problem we did. Only in the opposite direction.
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Originally Posted by aguadalte
But another thing calls my attention: have you noticed that the guy inside the car filming these dramatic events, never made a sound or even an exclamation during the whole process
I think I'd be quite speechless if I'd just seen a 744 plough-in:ugh::ugh: |
Stall.
Incipient spin. Recovering but not enough altitude. Guy I knew years ago died in a Dak when load shifted on take-off. Straight up, straight down!!! |
SLF with aviation interest and some image processing (though medical):
Did someone verify the origin of this video. I am wondering about three things: 1.) As someone pointetd out the driver barely makes a noise. I was sitting here watching these horrific images and was saying out loud my thoughts "Oh sh@#!". 2.) The date on the camera is wrong. Yes, could be not set properly but still. 3.) The noise heard from the outside is strange. I can hear the car driving but very little from a fully fueled 747 crashing on the ground. 4.) What is the driver doing after the crash, going a bit here and then there (maybe shock). Seems like a military vehicle (Antenna)? I am just a bit more careful with ANY video you see these days on the web as a lot of stuff can be manipulated and take it with a grain of salt until confirmed authentic. |
Originally Posted by grimmrad
I was sitting here watching these horrific images and was saying out loud my thoughts "Oh sh@#!"
He does utter a few choice words shortly afterwards!
Originally Posted by grimmrad
The date on the camera is wrong. Yes, could be not set properly but still
Originally Posted by grimmrad
The noise heard from the outside is strange. I can hear the car driving but very little from a fully fueled 747 crashing on the ground
Originally Posted by grimmrad
What is the driver doing after the crash, going a bit here and then there (maybe shock). Seems like a military vehicle (Antenna
Originally Posted by grimmrad
I am just a bit more careful with ANY video you see these days on the web as a lot of stuff can be manipulated and take it with a grain of salt until confirmed authentic
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Names have been released.
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There is one reaction of the driver of the driver which fits - right after impact he is going into reverse and back a bit. Anyhow, thanks to White Knight, I am not doubting it I am just used to question a lot of stuff on the web. Very sad.
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Here's one for the conspiracy nuts who just posted.....
Are the dashcams calibrated for the proper date and if so, why does this say Feb 1st.....? |
Also note the left wing stalls first followed by a right hand roll. Do you see the right wing drop a little first then the left then the right? RAW FOOTAGE National Airlines 747-400 Plane Crash - Apr 29, 2013 - YouTube Did someone verify the origin of this video. I am wondering about three things: 1.) As someone pointetd out the driver barely makes a noise. I was sitting here watching these horrific images and was saying out loud my thoughts "Oh sh@#!". 4.) What is the driver doing after the crash, going a bit here and then there (maybe shock). Seems like a military vehicle (Antenna)? He then may have tried to make a cell call. Perhaps then he figured out the crash was still airside so traffic control not required, so went closer? Perhaps dog is a pointer that he was a security officer, although lack of use of his radio or radio coming to life would be unusual? 2.) The date on the camera is wrong. Yes, could be not set properly but still. 3.) The noise heard from the outside is strange. I can hear the car driving but very little from a fully fueled 747 crashing on the ground. I am just a bit more careful with ANY video you see these days on the web as a lot of stuff can be manipulated and take it with a grain of salt until confirmed authentic. |
Names have been released. I just found out it's a company I used to work for, I may know some of the crew. :( |
Initial impressions from the video
Aside from the general "It is an ugly crash" feeling, I am noticing a bit of 'roughness' to the fuselage profile in the starboard lower lobe of the fuselage ahead of the tail. There is a lot of pixelation there, but it may also be an effect caused by a heavy vehicle or other cargo hitting that area and penetrating-probably when the starboard wing dropped to 90+ degrees of bank.
It appears that the humidity was fairly high and there appear to be faint vapor effects behind the aircraft including what appears to be a tight vortex behind the rudder just before initial ground contact. As observed by others, the gear is down. When the nose rises uncontrollably, the natural reaction is to fight it with all that you have to attempt to push it back down. Some aircraft I have flown had procedures to instead immediately drop a wing to prevent reaching a high nose up attitude when encountering an uncontrollable pitch up. Are such procedures used in the cargo community? Of course, this might not work well in an 'A' manufactured aircraft, but this was a 'B' with an entirely different control philosophy. |
Are you walking around in a daze? "Oh, I just remembered! I used to WORK for National Air Cargo! Oh, my!" But it turns out that even though AAI used to own that aeroplane, they probably sold it to National Air Cargo some time recently. Condolences to the crew and their families. :( |
For those who worry what the families may feel seeing the video. From Av Herald
My husbands death By Linda Garrett on Tuesday, Apr 30th 2013 23:14Z My ex husband was a mechanic on this plane. I appreciate the person(s) who filmed the last few seconds of my husbands life. I and it makes me feel the raw pain and fear he must've felt in those last few seconds of his life. It is something I can keep for remembrance of his dedication and love for he job he worked at for 23 years. It was truly his first love. My life is forever changed by this lost, and now his daughters must grow up without his love and support. God speed and fly high my love, i'll see you some day soon...... |
Do we know the original destination yet for the flight?
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According to company website it was bound for Dubai
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It's interesting how the mike in the humvee failed to pick up the sound of the impact/explosion.. it was loud, very VERY loud.. even from our vantage point approx mid-point on the 12000ft runway.
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I wanted to remind that human factors is the most common cause of accidents. I do not blame anyone. For us here, things seem to be much more clearer and obvious than for the actual pilots in the cockpit. Thus we tend to think mostly about pure technical causes of the accident. Of course, this is the place for rumors and speculations, but I see a trend here with underestimating human factor. We are mere humans. Mere humans.
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He did. Just took a moment for the shock to clear and what he saw to sink in.
It's highly likely the driver is either ex or current military and has seen death first hand before. |
It's interesting how the mike in the humvee failed to pick up the sound of the impact/explosion.. it was loud, very VERY loud.. even from our vantage point approx mid-point on the 12000ft runway. |
It is as clear as day. Extreme angle of climb causes cargo to shift that can clearly be seen as the a/c passes the antenna, watch the tail, change of attitude, then stall, game over.
Now the focus will be on the radical departure. Pilot or Company? Dead men cant tell tales. |
It's interesting how the mike in the humvee failed to pick up the sound of the impact/explosion.. it was loud, very VERY loud.. even from our vantage point approx. mid-point on the 12000ft runway. It looks like there was a small hill or it crashed in a ditch, so this would have also reduced the sound wave, also you were downwind? The camera was upwind and (probably) in a sealed car (sound of the horn is faint as is truck passing by..) Also Mics on cheap cameras are notoriously crap and in this case the auto level control pulled down the "noise" level so as it rose it was pulled down (too far) and muffled. Unlike similar views from Humvees in Afghanistan this explosion (a deflagration rather than a detonation) did not have a shockwave travelling faster than the speed of sound. I agree that it was bazaar that the person filming did not even gasp??? Interesting that his dog apparently needed calming down yet he was pretty cool, perhaps the kind of reaction a parent would have if a child was the car? He stopped and had the car in reverse before it had hit. |
He stopped and had the car in reverse before it had hit. This guy's SA is definitely in war mode, good for him based on where he is located. You can definitely hear mobile interference right after the crash, probably the guy trying to get a hold of somebody. Quite a disturbing video. I wonder if the cargo shift was bad enough to make it irrecoverable. Will be interesting to see what the investigation turns up. |
I agree. just because we would say "holy crap!" does not mean everyone would. Good point also about the dog. I know a few canine handlers and they are the same- very careful about being controlled and not shouting when working with the dog.
It's also quite possible he was not even looking in that direction- how many of us drive a familiar route while looking out of the side window? I imagine this would be more important in a hostile area as well, rather than driving happily along only looking out of the front window. The camera was facing forward- driver may not have been. Also sounds as though a text was being sent or received- I know that sound can just result from the phone picking up a signal, but drive rcould also have been distracted by the phone which could explain why it took him some time to react. You just don't know how you will react. I was once in a situation where you would expect anyone to shout/scream/make a noise... apparently all I said was quietly "oh sh!t" and stood there for a second or two before moving. So no, an immediate reaction is not always there. Especially, as someone mentioned, for someone experienced to operate in a war zone where exclaiming loudly could get you killed. ETA: posted same time re: phone. Pretty safe bet he was trying to get ahold of someone. You can also hear the hazard lights clicking on and off... |
It's interesting how the mike in the humvee failed to pick up the sound of the impact/explosion.. it was loud, very VERY loud.. even from our vantage point approx mid-point on the 12000ft runway |
It's pretty sad :( , supposedly the first officer had got married 2 weeks ago.
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It's pretty sad , supposedly the first officer had got married 2 weeks ago. :( |
Audio levels
I do know about cameras and audio equipment. Critically, the camera here is mounted INSIDE an armoured vehicle. You can see the armoured glass of the windscreen. 7mm armoured glass cuts out pretty much all sound.
Then there's the matter of the recording equipment. The mic on a GoPro or similar dashboard cam will be set to automatically adjust sound to the same level all the time. So the driver's breathing and dog whimpering are recorded at the same level as the detonation. And as mickjoebill remarked there is no supersonic shock wave from a fireball. So no sharp "crack". You can hear the engines surging on the aircraft as it falls, then the automatic level control "clips" the audio level, and by the time of the impact the levels are reduced almost to zero. I would expect that the decibel level of the surging engines at this distance would be about the same as the decibel level of the explosion - 130dB? Something like that? (that's a guesstimate, by the way). So the audio rec circuit would have already compensated for the increasing audio level as the aircraft fell. In addition, as noted, the audio record quality is notoriously poor on a cheap camera. You can try it yourself on your camera phone - alternately whisper and shout and see what you hear. The audio you hear when you watch a movie is totally unlike what is recorded by the microphones in real life. It's all overlaid, edited, with multiple layers of sound added to make the explosion sound more "real'. I've filmed incoming artillery rounds, and a B-52 dumping a full load on Serbian positions in Kosovo, and land mines detonating, and IEDs; and even with full professional kit, when you play back the recording they sound fake and tinny. Another point - No one gets into Bagram without being in some way connected to the military. From the little evidence we have, this guy is almost certainly a Brit with the K9 patrol unit. He will probably be an ex Royal Military Police dog handler, and he will know how to react to critical situations, having almost certainly served with the Army in Iraq and Afghanistan. He's almost certainly seen plenty of stuff go bang, and seen much more graphic and disturbing sights. He kept his cool. That's all. Good man. |
NADPS?
Can't help wondering which rulemaker/desk pilot insists on ANY NADP in what is still an active theatre of war?
Surely the crews operating to such locations have more pressing and vital methods of operating to try to ensure their a**e isn't shot off by the locals? Alas it may have been the touted load shift as a cause of this ghastly accident, but I fear for the cargo moving community as the comparative lack of negative publicity and lack of pressure on the operators will change little, as it was "only crew casualties" and not 300+ SLF. So carry on operating large aircraft, without separate firewatch crewmembers, ferrying large quantities of Li-Ion batteries and whatever else lethal cargoes are out there making money for the operators. If special restraints are necessary for these vehicles in a C17 and other mil aircraft, who decided that it was acceptable to strap them into a civilian cargo aircraft, and 6 instead of 5 as may be the case? The inmates are running the asylum............................ :ugh: |
Gob, the fact that it's a civilian aircraft possibly? Or that it's not every day you see something that size appear to 'fall' out of the sky? Military or not, it would be shocking. Just because the reaction (to us) may seem understated doesn't mean it wasn't shocking to (military) witnesses... ?
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@Farrell - harsh. I seriously reject your automatically labeling me as nut job and conspiracy theorist. I was simply asking a few questions regarding the authenticity of the video, is that so wrong? If you got the video from a buddy, reliable source, fine. If just found it on youtube well... (Flying like a bird | part 14/14 - YouTube). Do you believe everything you see on YouTube immediately? I am scientist and as that used to question things. That doesn't mean I don't accept it as correct with the right answers. And I don't label other people who ask critical questions. BTW - what conspiracy would that be!
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Mungo P, from your knowledge of the perimeter road, how far do you think the camera was from the crash?
I don't drive the perimeter road that often, usually only when practicing on the range but I'd guess only maybe 300+ mtrs.. I was hoping for an educated response from someone familiar with audio equipment and RCSA supplied that.. thank you. As for people witnessing some horror or other out here, keep in mind that there are maybe 30,000 personnel on the base.. a small town.. and that less than 10% of any military contingent ever see any form of active service, they may wander around the base varying M4s and side arms but that's more part of the uniform. 90+% are support staff working at various tasks, never leave the base and have no idea of conditions beyond the walls. As pilots we're more fortunate. I've been back to the sight since to try to clarify whether we saw 5 or 6 MRAPS but the security people are preventing anyone from loitering.. we only had a brief opportunity to assess things on our first look so I can't be adamant about whether we saw 5 or 6.. don't wish to mislead anyone. The video checks out in every way what we witnessed. No conspiracy theories please. Extremely lucky that as far as we can tell nobody on the ground was injured.. the a/c banking right saved a number of lives.. there are many people working to the left of the runway overrun at that location. |
You can hear the explosion in the video, just need to apply a bit of a high cut filter. The sound of the gearbox and (what I would guess to be) wheel slippage on the shoulder of the road while reversing the vehicle masks it.
The offset between visual/audio of the event is about 750 ms, assuming a speed of sound of 344 m/s that would put the camera around 250 meters from point of impact. Looking at loudness, not knowing many of the specific parameters, assuming 170 dB at 1 meter distance (now this is a bit of a thumb suck), that would decrease to around 110 dB at a distance of 250 meters, 8 mm of bullet proof glass would probably give an additional 30 dB or so of attenuation. All under correction of course |
What happens with regard to accident investigation in this context? Is it more important that it was civil, or that it was in a military context presumably doing military transport work?
In other words, can we ever expect to see a public report? |
..... as nut job and conspiracy theorist. I was simply asking a few questions regarding the authenticity of the video, is that so wrong? |
NTSB are on their way..
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Barking:
It is as clear as day. Extreme angle of climb causes cargo to shift that can clearly be seen as the a/c passes the antenna, watch the tail, change of attitude, then stall, game over. Now the focus will be on the radical departure. Pilot or Company? Dead men cant tell tales. Barking, what if a load shift (or something else in flight control system) led to nose higher than usual? I am not sure how you come to that conclusion about what caused what. Some of the other pilots, who have posted here, and who fly that freight aircraft, do not agree that a "radical departure" is a common method. Do you have inside information? If so, the NTSB may wish to hear what you have to say. agua: But another thing calls my attention: have you noticed that the guy inside the car filming these dramatic events, never made a sound or even an exclamation during the whole process, except for quietening his dog? Odd, very odd. FWIW, the accent doesn't sound British to me, sounds more American, but it's very brief and the above noted "lousy mics" on cameras may have influenced that. Agreed with the folks above that this gent seems to have kept his cool very well. Thanks to those who explain how the load system works. :ok: |
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