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BUMP
Finally got my reply from my MP.
The Minister for Europe at the Foreign & Commonwealth Office has also written to me via my MP. It seems the F&CO has no clout but has been made aware of Mr Irwin's plight. It doesn't really address the nub of the problem but at least my elected representatives are showing some effort. We will see. :( |
Judges Reasoning
It is time for all engineers to take action before they find themselves in prison.
The Greek judge has has given her reasons for banging up Alan Irwin for 123 years and has set the precendent that an engineer is responsible for configuring an aircraft for flight: "Furthermore, the Court did not accept the arguments of the defendant that it was the pilot’s sole responsibility to set the switch to the AUTO position, because the pilots have a number of obligations that are also obligations of the engineer." The reasoning is 400 pages of similar ill informed rubbish which will probably not get a public airing. Maybe someone should 'name and shame' her for putting aviation safety back 100 years. How about boycotting all aircraft going into Greek airspace or belonging to Greek operators for a start. |
What an absolute :mad: this sentence is. No wonder the Greeks are in such a mess if this is an indication of things.
Greece, you should be royally ashamed of yourself, take two demerits and leave the EU immediately!:= |
The only up side to this seems to be that the Greeks like Turkeys voting for Christmas have put them selfs on a position that is going to result in them being kicked out of the EEC, so no more EEC arrest warrant, this should put a UK court between Mr Irwin and a Greek jail.
I am of the opinion that this court judgment simply shows that the Greeks are unfit to be a part of the EEC as the legal system fails to understand the complex nature of these modern technical cases and reverts to a stance of jailing the nearest person they can find in an effort to look like they are doing something. |
Yes I believe engineers should leave all the controls in the "normal position"!
So when an aircraft is handed to me by an engineer I will expect the following; Throttle levers at cruise, QNH set to 1013, gear selected UP, Oh and the pressurisation SET! That should blow your hair back when you open the door! After all that is the "normal position" isn't it? Normal - is a relative term. Normal pressurisation at ground level (where the engineer works) is OFF. If a switch is in a cockpit then it is there for the Pilot(s) to operate, not the engineer. If the switch was in the engine nacelle (where the pilot can't reach) then it would be the engineers responsibility! |
A Gem from the Judge
The problem with you guys is that you don't speak Greek like real engineers!
Another little gem: "Al*****los also testified that the door can open with 1.1 differential pressure" He has to be right because he is Greek (and evidently very strong!):ugh:. |
As has been proved many times, all things being equal, the non-Greek gets it, in the end!
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GCS16
Your thinking makes perfect sense to anyone in the aviation business but to a Greek judge who is looking for a head on a platter the only thing that makes any sense is the opportunity to pit the blame on the person standing nearest to the incident, if that person happens to not be Greek so much the better!
The Greek government has been proved to be corrupt from top to bottom, the way they entered the Euro is an example of this, so why should we be so suprized when a Greek court hands down a judgment that totally ignores international law, proper investigation procedure and factual evidence. |
Helios crash
A timely reminder of a previous Greek Tragedy.... the 2001 conviction by a Hellenic court of 12 Brit plane spotters on spying charges. The moral of the story is whether you fly them, fix them or watch them, in Greek airspace watch your six.
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Greek Legal System
Curious that you are found guilty in Greece for complying with the AMM... So much for jurisprudence. I manufacture flight critical products for the civil and defence industries. There are a number of countries that I preclude sale or use of these products in. The list just got one longer.
Greece has the legal system they deserve, as well as the Government to match. The question is whether the industry has the fortitude to again black ban Greece and flight operations into Greece or out of Greece due to the fact that they have shown they cannot be trusted with accounting, application of law, in fact anything outside of the eating (and probably fabrication of) Souvlaki. IFALPA needs to react, to at least show solidarity, lord knows ICAO, EASA don't. |
"in fact anything outside of the eating (and probably fabrication of) Souvlaki"
this is uncalled-for. I've worked on legal cases ( and in one case an aviation legal case ) involving both Greece and Portugal and out of all the EU countries I've had the largest problems with those two. These are countries with legal and governmental problems, but also in my experience of hospitable and generous people, and I don't see why this kind of abuse is called for. |
Greek Legal system
Now now Fdr let`s not kick a dog when its down, after all just as we cannot put the blame on the Wright Bros. for all those nasty air crashes we cannot equally blame Mr.Archimides for the sinking of the Titanic now can we.
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Another gem from the 3 hour lunch countries...
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Forgive an intrusion from an unqualified observer - but if Mr Irwin was not in breach of any published procedures, work instructions, authorisations, etc, then does this judgement put engineers working on any aircraft that might have an accident in Greece in exactly the same position?
Have any airlines' legal departments been looking at the ramifications for their own operations? Or have any engineers within those airlines expressed their concerns to management? And I bet people are asking whether their employers have legal assistance insurance cover! |
Letter to MP
I have just received the reply to the letter I sent to my MP on this subject, it is clear that the Forieign & commonwealth office are well aware of this case.
They are also insistent that the UK can't block a European arrest warrant despite the fact that the judgment flys in the face of both EEC and UN mandates on the subject of using accident investigation data in criminal procicutions. What I do however read between the lines is that the UK and other states in the EEC are more than a little unhappy with the legal process in this case and are putting diplomatic pressure on the Greeks to review this case in the light of the evidence that they clearly failed to understand the first time around. I also think that the Greeks are truly baffled by the fact that there has been so much interest in the case, as far as they were concerned they had banged up someone so the case was closed.............and now they find themselfs at the sharp end of a lot of very well directed criticism and they now have to find a face saving way out or things will just get worse for them. I can only urge all of you to write to your MP's as each letter puts just a little more pressure on the F & C office, and that will in turn be felt in Athens. It would also be helpfully if those not in the UK made representations to their Euro MP's as the Greek problem is not just a UK problem but one the whole of Europe needs to get a grip of. |
letter to MP
I cannot see how further letters to MP`s will help the hapless Mr. Irwin.
On 13 May 2009 the Hon member for Mid Beds, Nadine Davies brought Mr. Irwin`s case before the House for debate. Mr.David Hanson responded on behalf of the Ministry of Justice. I would suggest all those interested in furthering Mr.Irwin`s cause read the full text of the debate. This can be found at the following link, Columns 280WH - 287WH. It is most enlightening. House of Commons Hansard Debates for 13 May 2009 (pt 0010) |
Even if Mr. Irwin had left the selector in manual, which he did not, it is a basic principle in aviation that an aircraft engineer is never responsible for configuring an aircraft for flight: this is the sole responsibility of the flight crew, as part of their pre-flight checks, and the ultimate responsibility rests with the captain. Having read the report posted by Chronus I can only conclude that, as usual, the engineer will be shafted again! If I am ever put in the same position as Mr Irwin (Gawd forbid) I for one will have one thing to say to the AAIB... "No Comment" I am rapidly losing any faith I may have had in the justice system. :mad: |
I am rapidly losing any faith I may have had in the justice system. That was exactly why I posed my question above - any engineers whose aircraft subsequently crash in Greece can presumably be dragged away on an EU arrest warrant and tried in the same fashion as Mr Irwin, while the UK government looks on impotently. I presume that airlines have considered that and are content with the legal basis of their engineering operations... |
Originally Posted by Easy Street
any engineers whose aircraft subsequently crash in Greece can presumably be dragged away on an EU arrest warrant and tried in the same fashion as Mr Irwin, while the UK government looks on impotently.
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justice system
Easy Street my point is not just that British Justice cannot help, it is also:
Cum Romanum venio, ieiuno Sabbato; cum hic sum, non ieiuno: sic etiam tu, ad quam forte ecclesiam veneris, eius morem serva, si cuiquam non vis esse scandalum nec quemquam tibi. To save the trouble of rummaging through old Latin proverbs, it means when in Rome ...... Over the years I wonder how many expats have had a bitter taste of this. |
Shows the farce of EASA , we are not in a harmonised system, after all look at the criminal proceedings in france ref the concorde crash !!!
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Reopening the Investigation
It appears that, despite new and significant evidence being submitted, the Greeks have decided not to reopen the investigation.
Probably because it demonstrates beyond all reasonable doubt that the guys were NOT guilty, and they don't like that. I know, the original evidence also demonstrated that they were NOT guilty, but they ignored that because that is how the system works. Time to boycott all aircraft that will enter Greek Airspace or post here, what sort of cake you would like the file baked in for your stay in a Greek jail. |
Mr. Stoimenov, the Helios Air CP, interviewed on BTV, Bulgaria 10/08/12
This is the link to to the video:
??? ? ??????????? ?????, ?????? ?? 123 ?????? ?????? ? ?????? - bTV ???????? Unfortunately it is in Bulgarian. I will try to obtain a transcript and translate it asap. |
a good idea maybe?
It will be nice if a news network officially approaches BTV in Bulgaria for a translated copy and releases it in the UK...
Any journos about? Mr. Learmont? :D |
Finaly some official reaction!!!
The Bulgarian CAA, the Transport investigation board of Bulgaria and the Bulgarian Airline Pilot Union have sent an official request to the Greek authorities to reopen the investigation into the Helios crash in respect of the Bulgarian defendant, Captain Yanko Stoimenov, in the criminal case in Athens.
If the British Government reacts as well, this will increase the international pressure on the Greeks manifold! Keep your fingers crossed guys! :D |
excerpts of Mr Stoimenov's intervew on bTV
This is an unofficial translation of the interview of the ex-Helios CP, Captain Yanko Stoimenov shown in prime time on Bulgarian bTV some time ago:
Seven years after the tragedy there are two criminal court cases in progress - in Greece and Cyprus. Bulgarian Yanko Stoimenov who was the chief pilot of the airline "Helios", was sentenced to 123 years in prison for the crash. Greek court of first instance held that Stoimenov, along with three representatives of Helios, is responsible for the incident. Greek investigators assume that the crash was caused by human error and Stoimenov is responsible as the Chief Pilot of the airline. In Cyprus, the case against Yanko Stoimenov and the three other defendants was dismissed but it is under appeal by the prosecution. "The charges against us are that we allowed incompetent pilots to operate the plane," said Stoimenov. "The copilot held an English license. To get an English and a German license and be able to maintain it before coming to "Helios" cannot be done by an incompetent person. I last checked these pilots. Before, I had dozens of tests that have confirmed their competence. Investigations into the crash in Greece and Cyprus have reached different conclusions. It is believed that the cause of the tragedy was cabin depressurization, leading to inadequate pilots and death. According to the Greek authorities, the pilots took off with the cabin selector in the wrong position - set to manual mode. The paradox is that in such a scenario, many hypotheses exist. What is known is that the pilots did not recognize correctly the alarm. This Boeing alarm has a double meaning that got many pilots, before those of the "Helios" flight, confused and crashes had just been avoided. The same signal is used for decompression and wrong configuration for departure. Recommendations have been sent years before this disaster to Boeing and if they were implemented that accident might not have happened. Yanko Stoimenov who was Chief Pilot at "Helios" admits that six months before the deadly crash the same aircraft again had a problem with pressurization. "Then the pilots did a brilliant job and managed to land the plane safely. The system had depressurized the aircraft without any human intervention. The manufacturer of the system is a subcontractor of Boeing - a German company. They could not find a reason why their system depressurized the aircraft. Why was this aircraft not removed from service after such a defect six months before the crash? "Once the manufacturer himself could not find the reason, all components were replaced with new ones. I personally flew the aircraft to the maintenance facility in England, where the system was serviced. And I ferried it back without passengers. For you as a professional was that not strange? "In aviation, one must rely on the expertise of others. I was calm. Now it's hard to tell because I studied the system, and it is a computer, just as vulnerable. In the investigation of the crash no one looked at the history of failures of the computer system, that for example it was liable to radio transmissions. None of the Greek team has investigated why and if the computer has allowed the depressurization only because of a change in the switch position. Could this type of system command a depressurization so easily? "Official information about depressurization occurrences will hardly come to light. The information we have is that it was hundreds of times and that it confused pilots. " Two years after the crash IATA did a research on cases of decompression of Boeing 737. Information was provided only by some airlines. These statistics indicate that for a year and a half there were 62 cases of depressurization and in nearly half of the cases the reason remains unclear - these are only the cases that were reported. A team of independent Canadian experts analyzed the physical evidence from the plane crash near Athens. The main question was – manual position of the mode switch of the pressurization system, as the Greeks claimed, or automatic. If the setting was auto, this enhances a mechanical problem in the aircraft. The Canadian independent expert team showed that the cause of depressurization was not the pilot actions and that the pilots have put the system in normal (auto) mode, in which you operate before departure. They examined the mechanical and collision traces and calculated that the position of the switch has been auto at impact, which clears the pilots. "They were able to study the movement of the switch at the time of the crash, which clearly shows that it was placed where it should be. They are adamant that the pilots properly did the pre-flight inspection and there was a different reason for the depressurization. Probably technical. A contradiction exists in the study of the light on the instrument panel that would illuminate in manual mode, but we have only photos of this and other details. The switch is gone, the light - too. Nobody knows where they are. The key evidence is missing. "We want to find an explanation of what happened. And not to speculate on the actions of the pilots, unless all available evidence is taken into account, and some of the evidence was not even requested by the court, "says Yanko Stoimenov. The last 30 minutes of the CVR audio recording from the cockpit are available. bTV has the official recording of the last moments of flight 522 on 14 August 2005. Throughout the recording an alarm sounds. Recording ends, for technical reasons, and presumably a few minutes later the plane crashed. No parallel analysis of the FDR and CVR recordings was ever made. What happened at the last moment is not known. Yanko Stoimenov hopes contradictions between the Greek and Canadian independent investigation, accepted by the court in Cyprus, will provoke a reopening of the investigation in Greece. Yanko and the other three defendants face a legal battle at two more institutions in Greece and Cyprus, with the hope that nobody will be condemned as a scapegoat. For the relatives of the 115 people killed, including about 50 children, the question is no less painful? "At the beginning of the case in Cyprus the mood was very hostile. We were physically abused, but then our embassy reacted and security measures were taken. It never happened again, but for two years we went to court with an escort. In court, I saw people who had lost their entire family. The pain was incredible, but pain is not always the best advisor. They were looking just for a victim, to direct their vengeance at, "said the Bulgarian. Since he was sentenced for the plane crash Yanko Stoimenov cannot fly. He is working as a consultant and simulator instructor. "This is the fourth year that I have to bear this stress, if I succumb to emotions, I won’t last a year. I do not want to go back to what I went through. I never thought that could happen and how it affected my health and my family. I would not go into details. But at one point ... There are many incentives that make me fight. " "It is sad, because it is a year now, that I have not flown a plane," admits Yanko. "The good thing is that many people around the world are grateful I helped them learn to fly." |
Re-opening the Investigation
This fiasco has taken it's toll on all the accused, aviation people with years of experience who did nothing wrong, but in the Greek system heads must roll.
The First Instance court was a farce, and there is little hope that the Appeal will be any better. Unlike UK Courts the evidence is not important; the prosecution evidence is all from the accident report, but the defence is by non-Greek experts, all with years of experience but who are wrong because they have the temerity to question the Report. Great that Ianko's Government has stood up and been counted. The UK Government has done nothing and is unlikely to. The Greek AAI&ASB are not going to Re-open the investigation. The UK AAIB has stood up and been counted, and they have told AAI&ASB that they consider that the original Report is flawed and the investigation should be Re-opened. However, NTSB/Boeing don't want it Re-opened; I wonder why:rolleyes: and it is to their tune that the Greeks will dance. |
Surely this has absolutely nothing to do with the UK AAIB ???
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It has.
Alan Irwin, the Helios engineer and a UK citizen, is also a target of the Greek and Cypriot courts... |
Thanks Mr. Learmount
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A sombre example of life imitating art. The first version of the novel 'Flight 935 Do You Read' (in which an aircraft comes to grief after the death by hypoxia of all persons on board) was written two decades before the Helios accident. In the original version the flight engineer was (falsely) blamed for the accident. In the final version the pilots are (falsely) blamed.
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They should all take it in turns, not to turn up, citing health reasons. If they can drag it out until Aug 2013, they're free. Helios appeal hearing delayed - Cyprus Mail
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It took 13 years to move a certain other person recently. Perhaps they could use some of the same tactics.
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I sounds to me as if the Greeks know that they have got this one wrong in a big way so to save face they will let the whole thing drag on until it times out.
That way they don't have to jail people and have the whole of The aviation industry demanding the release of these people and the Greek legal system does not have the embaressment of having a case overturned in open court. |
I believe, A & C, you have hit the nail square on the head.
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Will there even be a 'Greek legal system' in Aug 2013?
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Retrial
The Cypriot courts have ordered a retrial, it would appear.
Supreme Court orders retrial in Helios case - Cyprus Mail |
Firstly I have known Alan for a number of years and can again only say he is a great Engineer
Its an outrage that this witchhunt went this far , over the last 35 years , I have seen switches left in the wrong position from crew rushing off to Hotels or Home, 1000s of times , even a crew leaving an aircraft with the no 2 engine still running . At least on 3 occasions the FLT/GND switch selected by crew to the wrong position - SELECTED !!! How can the industry tolerate legal action against the Engineers - the very people who stop accidents before they happen on a daily basis , for doing nothing wrong So how can any engineer ever fill out any incident , delay or technical report without legal caveats , in fact every tech log entry would need a legal caveat . Given the unbelievable stupidity of some crew entries in the tech log just how could some of them ever be certified ? Someone in Greece needs to look up negligence in the dictionary - this was not negligence If we can be blamed for aircrew going wrong or poor crew systems knowledge - We are all going to need seriously good lawyers!! |
It appears that from the link above that the entire reason for continuing with this judicial farce is for a 'moral victory' on behalf of the victim's families. I'm also pretty disturbed by the fact that the Cypriots have reopened the issue with a new trial. I can only assume that this is due to Greek political pressure as Cyprus will fall if the Greeks economy does eventually sink without being propped up by the Eurozone.
In that case they may attempt to prosecute everybody on duty in the respective jurisdictions of departure, overflight and impact right down to the baggage handlers. Obviously we all feel sorry for the victims and their families but they're looking for their 'moral victory' at too high a cost. |
Obviously we are seeing the result of a Kangaroo Court.
The real culprits i.e. murderers (due to Sept 11 hysteria) hide among Greek Air Force personnel. :suspect: |
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