Severe turbulence LHR-SIN. One dead.
Moderator
Even a few hundred feet though in the small amount of time is enough to cause significant injuries if you dont have your belts fastened.
your seat belt will not protect you from having an F/A and her trolley crash down on you.
Helispoter
The report noted a consistent pattern of test pilots making inappropriate pitch control movements on encountering of negative vertical accelerations. I haven't read the report in further detail to understand the basis of this observation, but I wonder if this trend remains with modern airliners if flown 'manually'?
Having flown for more than 50 years and deliberately put myself in places where most people would not go there are a few theories that I disagree with.
The reason on the DC10 we took the autopilot/ auto throttle.auto trim out was so that the automatics would not over stress the aircraft in attempting to fly a datem; this was also reflected in the 777 crash at LHR where the captain ordered the PF to disconnect the autopilot which he failed to do and resulted in a marked increase in drag following the GS until the stall protection kicked in.
Basically you set the numbers for cruise flying and allow the aircraft to rise and sink with the currents only changing the settings if needed due to speed exceedences.
We also switch all the fuel pumps and engine icing( which included the igniters) on.
Whilst I’ve been forced to squeeze between, over and under CBs I’ve also flown through them and as previously written sometimes the worst contours are smooth and barely contouring are rough as old boots. I’ve also deviated 300nm for ground echos at night..it was only the absence of other traffic deviating that alerted me to my stupidity.
I was knocked semiconscious in a light wind day transiting under a roll cloud which I couldn’t understand why and how it had formed. My head hit the join of the canopy with the fuselage which is why my head didn’t go through the Perspex and both the gear and airbrakes came out. I was left with two bruises on my hips from the seat belt buckles.
I found myself inverted at 200ft agl instructing in a sailplane in South Africa - both cases no warning and instantaneous.
I used to be frightened of turbulence but two experiences changed that..in my mid 30s I was going through a bad period in my marriage and flying over the Pyrenees in moderate chop (I’ve only had severe twice)..and looking down from 5 miles I thought it’s an effing long way to fall but at least I won’t have to go back to her indoors. My second was with an ex Luftwaffe starfighter jockey whom I suggested that we should switch on the belts..”warum alan” “turbulence peter” at which he stuffed the stick fully forward..then fully back and into the middle..”das ist turbulence”. Next time I saw him he was in charge of flight safety having had his medical suspended. Such was the rapidity of his movements I hardly left my seat.
HELISPOTER the answer to your question is the way the brain/body/senses work and what we learn from our environment.
I’ve flown paragliders for a quarter of a century where the above play far more important rolls which I learnt from a French safety instructor whilst flying over the lake of Annecy équipes with a life vest along with a reserve parachute and a rescue boat beneath me. A paraglider is controlled through brake handles which when pulled add drag and increase the angle of attack on one side; pull together they slow the wing down and are used continuously in flight in turbulent air to keep the wing above your head; the craft has pendulum stability up to a point. If the wing goes behind you you have a feeling of falling and the natural instinct is to put your hands out behind you which adds brakes and can stall the wing which is what you don’t want to do. So you have to learn when you think you are falling to raise your hands. It gets far more complicated in rough air and one is always conscious that one could fall into the wing when it shoots in front of you and you plummet to earth in a shroud.
I figured out a technique in my early flying days 50 plus years ago that if you don’t know what’s going on stick all of the controls in the middle..did me proud flying sailplanes in the alps.
Seat belts; contentious.
the irish tv carried a statement that 1 in 4 of road fatalities did not wear a seat belt. I had a friend who had a low loader pull out in front of him whilst driving his soft top sports car..he flew over the lorry and would have been decapitated if he had been wearing a seat belt.
If crews thought about their passengers convenience more than perhaps seat belts would be worn more;
There are operators who leave them on until after top of climb..so you’ve queued for 30 mins..20 mins on the ground..25 mins to top of climb and then that’s the first time you can use a loo!
Then there are those who are chummy with the CC and switch them on during meal and duty free service to keep the cattle out of the way. Not forgetting I’m going for a pee in ten minutes let’s make sure that the loo is free.
And lastly one of my course on the iron duck was descending into columbo having come across from BEA without much experience of weather radar as it was captains only; started diverting around a rocket cloud when Sir took control and went straight through it which left nearly a dozen hospitalised including a broken back, holes in the ceiling, broken seat backs and the aircraft needing a severe turbulence check which one of the posters here sorted.
The report noted a consistent pattern of test pilots making inappropriate pitch control movements on encountering of negative vertical accelerations. I haven't read the report in further detail to understand the basis of this observation, but I wonder if this trend remains with modern airliners if flown 'manually'?
Having flown for more than 50 years and deliberately put myself in places where most people would not go there are a few theories that I disagree with.
The reason on the DC10 we took the autopilot/ auto throttle.auto trim out was so that the automatics would not over stress the aircraft in attempting to fly a datem; this was also reflected in the 777 crash at LHR where the captain ordered the PF to disconnect the autopilot which he failed to do and resulted in a marked increase in drag following the GS until the stall protection kicked in.
Basically you set the numbers for cruise flying and allow the aircraft to rise and sink with the currents only changing the settings if needed due to speed exceedences.
We also switch all the fuel pumps and engine icing( which included the igniters) on.
Whilst I’ve been forced to squeeze between, over and under CBs I’ve also flown through them and as previously written sometimes the worst contours are smooth and barely contouring are rough as old boots. I’ve also deviated 300nm for ground echos at night..it was only the absence of other traffic deviating that alerted me to my stupidity.
I was knocked semiconscious in a light wind day transiting under a roll cloud which I couldn’t understand why and how it had formed. My head hit the join of the canopy with the fuselage which is why my head didn’t go through the Perspex and both the gear and airbrakes came out. I was left with two bruises on my hips from the seat belt buckles.
I found myself inverted at 200ft agl instructing in a sailplane in South Africa - both cases no warning and instantaneous.
I used to be frightened of turbulence but two experiences changed that..in my mid 30s I was going through a bad period in my marriage and flying over the Pyrenees in moderate chop (I’ve only had severe twice)..and looking down from 5 miles I thought it’s an effing long way to fall but at least I won’t have to go back to her indoors. My second was with an ex Luftwaffe starfighter jockey whom I suggested that we should switch on the belts..”warum alan” “turbulence peter” at which he stuffed the stick fully forward..then fully back and into the middle..”das ist turbulence”. Next time I saw him he was in charge of flight safety having had his medical suspended. Such was the rapidity of his movements I hardly left my seat.
HELISPOTER the answer to your question is the way the brain/body/senses work and what we learn from our environment.
I’ve flown paragliders for a quarter of a century where the above play far more important rolls which I learnt from a French safety instructor whilst flying over the lake of Annecy équipes with a life vest along with a reserve parachute and a rescue boat beneath me. A paraglider is controlled through brake handles which when pulled add drag and increase the angle of attack on one side; pull together they slow the wing down and are used continuously in flight in turbulent air to keep the wing above your head; the craft has pendulum stability up to a point. If the wing goes behind you you have a feeling of falling and the natural instinct is to put your hands out behind you which adds brakes and can stall the wing which is what you don’t want to do. So you have to learn when you think you are falling to raise your hands. It gets far more complicated in rough air and one is always conscious that one could fall into the wing when it shoots in front of you and you plummet to earth in a shroud.
I figured out a technique in my early flying days 50 plus years ago that if you don’t know what’s going on stick all of the controls in the middle..did me proud flying sailplanes in the alps.
Seat belts; contentious.
the irish tv carried a statement that 1 in 4 of road fatalities did not wear a seat belt. I had a friend who had a low loader pull out in front of him whilst driving his soft top sports car..he flew over the lorry and would have been decapitated if he had been wearing a seat belt.
If crews thought about their passengers convenience more than perhaps seat belts would be worn more;
There are operators who leave them on until after top of climb..so you’ve queued for 30 mins..20 mins on the ground..25 mins to top of climb and then that’s the first time you can use a loo!
Then there are those who are chummy with the CC and switch them on during meal and duty free service to keep the cattle out of the way. Not forgetting I’m going for a pee in ten minutes let’s make sure that the loo is free.
And lastly one of my course on the iron duck was descending into columbo having come across from BEA without much experience of weather radar as it was captains only; started diverting around a rocket cloud when Sir took control and went straight through it which left nearly a dozen hospitalised including a broken back, holes in the ceiling, broken seat backs and the aircraft needing a severe turbulence check which one of the posters here sorted.
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I’ve observed that B787 pilots tend to be more conservative in avoiding weather due to the difficulty in repairing the composite airframe after a lightning strike. A minor strike on a metal airplane might require an inspection and a simple repair, whereas the B787 might be grounded for specialised repairs in consultation with Boeing.
Reading the sky is becoming a lost skill, those of us who didn’t have a large colour screen in front of us early on in our careers learned what sort of weather we could fly through and what needed to be avoided. Sometimes we learned the hard way. Many of today’s EFIS pilots only know to stay away from red returns and couldn’t identify common cloud types visually.
Reading the sky is becoming a lost skill, those of us who didn’t have a large colour screen in front of us early on in our careers learned what sort of weather we could fly through and what needed to be avoided. Sometimes we learned the hard way. Many of today’s EFIS pilots only know to stay away from red returns and couldn’t identify common cloud types visually.
To be honest, I haven’t spoken to any colleague who does.
Had plenty of lightning strikes in both and not a big deal.
Sorry
I was in a MEL to CBR flight with a sustained period of low level turbulence. Before it really set in the cabin crew brought around the drinks trolley. The passenger next to me asked for red wine.
He then decided it was too bumpy to actually sip it without risking spilling it over his shirt. He just sat next to me holding it in his hand in front of him and trying not to spill it everywhere.
He then decided it was too bumpy to actually sip it without risking spilling it over his shirt. He just sat next to me holding it in his hand in front of him and trying not to spill it everywhere.
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Maybe - what if a cup of coffee got dumped into the electronic controls during a turbulence event? I recall some incidents where that was both a short term and long term problem.
Edit: It also occurs to me that in an event such as this one, how liquid resistant are the overhead switch panels? Are there any circuits where liquid could make a conductive path in a high-impedance circuit to an unexpected voltage source?
Edit: It also occurs to me that in an event such as this one, how liquid resistant are the overhead switch panels? Are there any circuits where liquid could make a conductive path in a high-impedance circuit to an unexpected voltage source?
Last edited by MechEngr; 24th May 2024 at 18:35. Reason: Additional case.
Having accepted that it requires a negative G to propel unbuckled passengers into overhead structures and also accepted that a normal rate of decent followed the 'Event', I considered the seesaw motion of turbulence, I wondered what the casualty distribution was in the cabin layout; were there injuries amongst the more salubrious seated passengers or even amongst the flight deck personnel?
Maybe - what if a cup of coffee got dumped into the electronic controls during a turbulence event? I recall some incidents where that was both a short term and long term problem.
Edit: It also occurs to me that in an event such as this one, how liquid resistant are the overhead switch panels? Are there any circuits where liquid could make a conductive path in a high-impedance circuit to an unexpected voltage source?
Edit: It also occurs to me that in an event such as this one, how liquid resistant are the overhead switch panels? Are there any circuits where liquid could make a conductive path in a high-impedance circuit to an unexpected voltage source?
Can we get back to what this is about? And discuss the hope that due to the horrific outcome (a death) the truth will actually come out and SIA won’t be able to hide another another event of seemingly gross incompetence by its pilots?
From my "I learnt something from that" file, an observation and assumption that may, or may not, be valid. F350 northbound ex CMB over the Arabian Sea in sunny eight eighths blue, a cell built directly on track ahead..the only cloud in sight. It certainly topped F450+ so I diverted around the radar return on the side under the spreading anvil as it was closer to track. Abeam the cell 10 miles laterally and in the clear, we experienced two severe but short lived jolts that had bottles off service trolleys and pax drinks over their neighbors. It was then back to smooth air for the rest of the sector. I have never passed a cell since on the downwind side if I had the option. Lesson? Not all cell downdrafts are contained within the cell.
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On a ten hour flight you will probably make about three trips to the toilet which will take about five minutes each. Assuming you keep your seat belt fastened for the remaining time, then you are only at risk for 2.5% of the flight. Looking at it the other way, you are safe from turbulence for 97.5% of the time. Which is pretty good odds.
I wonder if guide rails along the aisles would be feasible to keep trolleys from flying around, basically the wheels go into a guide running the whole length of the aisle similar to the rollers in a kitchen draw.
I wonder if guide rails along the aisles would be feasible to keep trolleys from flying around, basically the wheels go into a guide running the whole length of the aisle similar to the rollers in a kitchen draw.
The problem with putting the trolleys on captive tracks is all the maneuvering around in the galley could become a nightmare - and if one got jammed, you've lost meal service for the whole flight.
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Does anyone know what other flights in the area were doing? I was looking at FR24 replay and SQ331 was about 12 minutes behind SQ321 coming from CDG to SIN on the same airways.
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Moderator
and if one got jammed, you've lost meal service for the whole flight.
It looks like the designers will have to change the seatbelt sign wording: "Fasten seatbelts - no matter what" or "fasten seatbelt - unless you must get out of your seat".
In the mean time, people have to take responsibility for themselves. Do they take their kid out of the car child seat, once they're on the highway, and let them wander around inside the car? Do they leave the kid on the pool deck alone, and go for a nap? Do they look both ways before crossing the street? Seatbelt use is just common sense, sensible people must exercise it!
Last edited by Pilot DAR; 25th May 2024 at 02:46. Reason: Added thought...
There is a pax who was aboard this flight who has gone to the media with her story and she makes no bones about not wearing her seatbelt from the moment the lights go off after takeoff til the aircraft is decending on approach and she is determined not to change her behaviour despite ending up slamming the overhead locker with her face.
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It will be interesting to see if Qantas continue to promote the get up & wander around advice on the Project Sunrise A350s:
“Fewer seats translate to more space for each customer and a dedicated Wellbeing Zone for travellers to stretch, help themselves to a snack and spend time out of their seat. We are the only airline in the world that will have a bespoke designed onboard stretch and movement space.”
“Fewer seats translate to more space for each customer and a dedicated Wellbeing Zone for travellers to stretch, help themselves to a snack and spend time out of their seat. We are the only airline in the world that will have a bespoke designed onboard stretch and movement space.”
N4790P
Seat belts fastened whilst seated is just common sense and also being respectful to fellow pax but other than bladder breaks the long haul issues with DVTs make regular movement equally important.
Over regulation on cabin movements could have unintended consequences.
Over regulation on cabin movements could have unintended consequences.
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Perhaps worldwide laws on wearing seatbelts in cars are fascist and unreasonable, belts being uncomfortable besides, so maybe we should all stop wearing them as soon as the car moves off then. Obviously not.
In light of that, perhaps constant orange cabin lights for 'Seat Belts Fastened' could remind passengers of the default rule for air passengers.
The signs above could change to red Turbulence Warning signs, meaning return to seats, with green signs lit for Seatbelts Off only at the departures/arrivals gate.
All pax flight literature and safety demos could also emphasize that any time spent unbelted, or out of your belted seat, for whatever reason, is at your own risk.
(Lifetime long-haul passenger thoughts)
In light of that, perhaps constant orange cabin lights for 'Seat Belts Fastened' could remind passengers of the default rule for air passengers.
The signs above could change to red Turbulence Warning signs, meaning return to seats, with green signs lit for Seatbelts Off only at the departures/arrivals gate.
All pax flight literature and safety demos could also emphasize that any time spent unbelted, or out of your belted seat, for whatever reason, is at your own risk.
(Lifetime long-haul passenger thoughts)
There was a time when the meal service was carried out without trolleys…but in the need for efficiency and lower staff costs it all changed.
A mate dead heading on the first Airbus watched a trolley roll end over end when the PF having cleared the Biggin Hill stack and given climb clearance selected level change, the throttles opened up to climb power and the nose came up to try and keep 250 knots.
We live with far more risk in the home let alone electric cars creeping up on us.
A mate dead heading on the first Airbus watched a trolley roll end over end when the PF having cleared the Biggin Hill stack and given climb clearance selected level change, the throttles opened up to climb power and the nose came up to try and keep 250 knots.
We live with far more risk in the home let alone electric cars creeping up on us.
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This is heart-breaking. From a recent news article, a woman is at the risk of loosing her baby to undergo surgery.
"Mr Khoo, who experienced numbness and cannot turn his neck properly, was initially in the ICU but has been transferred to a normal ward.
His wife, who is two months pregnant with their second child, will undergo surgery for her spine on Friday.
Ms Khoo said she only found out about her sister-in-law's pregnancy on Thursday when they were discussing her treatment options.
"The first doctor, actually, I think the communication is not very good," she said. "It (sounded like), you have to do the operation, but then you have to give up the baby."
"Mr Khoo, who experienced numbness and cannot turn his neck properly, was initially in the ICU but has been transferred to a normal ward.
His wife, who is two months pregnant with their second child, will undergo surgery for her spine on Friday.
Ms Khoo said she only found out about her sister-in-law's pregnancy on Thursday when they were discussing her treatment options.
"The first doctor, actually, I think the communication is not very good," she said. "It (sounded like), you have to do the operation, but then you have to give up the baby."
For the love of god, drinks - hot or cold - served on the FD are done so with lids.
Can we get back to what this is about? And discuss the hope that due to the horrific outcome (a death) the truth will actually come out and SIA won’t be able to hide another another event of seemingly gross incompetence by its pilots?
Can we get back to what this is about? And discuss the hope that due to the horrific outcome (a death) the truth will actually come out and SIA won’t be able to hide another another event of seemingly gross incompetence by its pilots?
This is a Pilot Rumour Network.
Some of us are here to learn and discuss things which affect pilots.