Para drop flight accident

[AES]

At approx 14.00 local, Sunday 18th February 2024, near "Flugplatz Grenchen" (Kanton Solothun, Switzerland) a "passenger aircraft" (per local newspaper reports) crashed just outside the airfield. Apparently carrying 13 parachutists, when the pilot realised the a/c was in difficulties (unspecified), he told all pax to bail out, which they all did, all landing safely.

The aircraft type is not reported, neither is the pilot's name. The pilot died in the accident. From published photos of the wreckage I cannot identify the a/c type. The pilot has not yet been named though I KNOW (for sure) who he was (I am related to him by marriage and was informed by my wife's sister early this morning).

Any more HARD information much appreciated. Thanks in advance

[what next]

Originally Posted by AES

The aircraft type is not reported,...

Here you can find the aircraft type and what other information is know so far: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/351775
Condolences for your loss.

[AES]

Thanks for the v quick response. Don't know much about that a/c type (I am/was a big a/c bloke)!

But I shall certainly miss "Krigel" even though I haven't seen him for quite a few years now.

And thanks for your thoughts mate.

[ATC Watcher]

Very sad story, sorry for your loss, AES, a question for those in the know, does carriage of a safety parachute for a Skydive a/c with an door open recommended in Switzerland ?

[phantomsphorever]

Pilot made a mayday call when the a/c was still at around 10.000 ft.
From that altitude he could have easily made it to a safe landing, even with the engine out?
So this points to a mechanical malfunction that rendered the a/c uncontrollable.
Impact was near vertical - so definitely completely out of control.
RIP to the pilot :-(

[AES]

Thanks for that ATC Watcher. Personally I do not "know him" these days (to a large extent I lost touch with the pilot when he started parachuting, and then flying himself; though we did have a pretty close relationship - mainly aviation-related - quite a a few years back now).

But as a general comment about "speculation generally":

A fellow Forum member posted details for me just recently. It contained a number of links which DID add some new hard info (for which I've thanked him, post above).

BUT included withing the various links was a "live ATC recording" of the last moments of that flight. I have NOT listened to that "recording", but attached to it are various "comments" which I just couldn't miss. Amongst other comments, someone (who as far as I can tell cannot possibly KNOW) speculates about "fear in voice transmissions", "lots of screaming" etc, etc.

Apart from the fact that I find listening to such recordings more than morbid, (even if I don't know the pilot - reading a transcript in a formal accident report is much different but also "chilling enough" IMO), I just wonder what it is in "us" (many human beings) that stir them to post such meaningless, potentially hurtful, completely speculative tripe?

Sorry, rant over.

Again, thanks for the condolences (first time I've ever been "directly" involved in an fatal accident, though I was a "crash guard" in a couple of RAF fatalities MANY years ago).

Cheers

[B2N2]

Unlikely this was an engine issue.
Interesting reading in the article about the aircraft type:

https://diverdriver.com/pac-750xl/

Article includes a video of the aircraft stalling with 6 jumpers hanging on outside:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mbaAai...ture=emb_title

It wouldn’t be the first time that the actions of a jumper led to an accident.

[EDLB]

Very likely a flight control issue. Engine out or stall would be no issue with such a plane at parachute drop altitude. Plenty time and energy to recover and make a safe forced landing. You are essential above the airport. Sad that the pilot had no chute.

[Junkflyer]

Used to fly skydivers in the US. Parachute was required for the pilot.
Always thought that was universal.

[atakacs]

Originally Posted by B2N2

Article includes a video of the aircraft stalling with 6 jumpers hanging on outside:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mbaAai...ture=emb_title

It wouldn’t be the first time that the actions of a jumper led to an accident.

Should be recoverable for even modestly competent pilot (I'd say any skydiver pilot should be ready for it as it is a relativly common occurrence). This looks like some flight control or structural failure.

[clearedtocross]

Originally Posted by Junkflyer

Used to fly skydivers in the US. Parachute was required for the pilot.
Always thought that was universal.

It certainly is required in Switzerland!

[9gmax]

Lost stabilo

still very early days, but some news reported that stabilo of the plane has been found far away from crashsite ...
https://www.solothurnerzeitung.ch/so...7?reduced=true

[B2N2]

Originally Posted by atakacs

Should be recoverable for even modestly competent pilot (I'd say any skydiver pilot should be ready for it as it is a relativly common occurrence). This looks like some flight control or structural failure.

Look further.
A stall would not be the cause of the accident but 5-6 jumpers bumping into your stabilizer as a result of it could be.
Like I said, wouldn’t be the first time the action of a jumper caused an accident.

[Jhieminga]

Originally Posted by B2N2

Article includes a video of the aircraft stalling with 6 jumpers hanging on outside:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mbaAai...ture=emb_title

It wouldn’t be the first time that the actions of a jumper led to an accident.

It is not a stall. You can see the aircraft gaining altitude relative to the high wing twin. In a stall it would lose altitude. The article linked to has a second part (addendum) that describes what happens: the driver ran out of forward stick and trim due to the group of skydivers hanging on and blocking the tailplane.
Anyway, we do not know what happened to the aircraft involved in the accident in Switzerland. Time and a thorough investigation will tell us.

[MartinM]

Originally Posted by clearedtocross

It certainly is required in Switzerland!

There is no obligation. This is left up pilot discretion

[ehwatezedoing]

Originally Posted by Jhieminga

It is not a stall. You can see the aircraft gaining altitude relative to the high wing twin. In a stall it would lose altitude. The article linked to has a second part (addendum) that describes what happens: the driver ran out of forward stick and trim due to the group of skydivers hanging on and blocking the tailplane.
Anyway, we do not know what happened to the aircraft involved in the accident in Switzerland. Time and a thorough investigation will tell us.

errr...he's obviously loosing control probably leading to a stall afterward, we just can't see from this video:
Too much "jumpers" in the back, out of CofG, nasty angle of attack (The part where you see the aircraft going up yes!) All that combined usually leads to a stall.


Not referring to the accident in Switzerland but the video linked in post #7

[ATC Watcher]

Originally Posted by MartinM

There is no obligation. This is left up pilot discretion

Thanks this is what I thought too, only a recommendation unfortunately, like we have in many EUR places .

[Jhieminga]

Originally Posted by ehwatezedoing

errr...he's obviously loosing control probably leading to a stall afterward, we just can't see from this video:
Too much "jumpers" in the back, out of CofG, nasty angle of attack (The part where you see the aircraft going up yes!) All that combined usually leads to a stall.


Not referring to the accident in Switzerland but the video linked in post #7

I agree, it may have led to it, but we cannot see that in the video so calling what is shown in the video a stall is incorrect. Anyhow, we better get back to the accident. If the stabiliser was found separate from the rest of the wreckage, it is no use arguing about stalls as a structural failure is something different.

[MartinM]

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

Thanks this is what I thought too, only a recommendation unfortunately, like we have in many EUR places .

Even if he would have had a chute attached, the issue remains that the aircraft dropped from FL100 to zero feet in roughly a minute. The g-forces likely give you no chance to release your harness, open the doors and jump out.

[Sziget]

Originally Posted by MartinM

Even if he would have had a chute attached, the issue remains that the aircraft dropped from FL100 to zero feet in roughly a minute. The g-forces likely give you no chance to release your harness, open the doors and jump out.

Free fall doesn't have g-forces, does it?