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Too low over Leman lake on final GVA

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Too low over Leman lake on final GVA

Old 6th Feb 2024, 11:09
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Too low over Leman lake on final GVA

On final to rwy 22 GVA, over the lake alarmingly below glideslope

https://simpleflying.com/easyjet-lak...ow-glideslope/
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Old 6th Feb 2024, 11:33
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Incident: Easyjet A20N at Geneva on Nov 5th 2023, descended well below glideslope
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Old 7th Feb 2024, 14:32
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This one is rather closer to home for me. Literally; I can see my house go by on the starboard side on final. I also have family in Scotland so am on this route a few times a year...
I was a bit surprised to learn that the altimeter reads out the ASL value and you have to subtract off the local elevation to get the actual height above the ground (or, in this case, lake). Do they still only have that spinny clock thing from the Spitfire days?
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Old 7th Feb 2024, 22:57
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No, much better than that, uses air data, backed up by radar beams. Invented by clever RAF engineers.
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Old 8th Feb 2024, 11:38
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Pure speculation, but I wonder if this was a mishandled GS from above (commenced from below the GS or without the G/S having beeen armed?).

Report will certainly make interesting reading…
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Old 9th Feb 2024, 10:02
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That was the first thing that sprung to mind too. Had to fly the GS from above procedure many times into GVA. In a high workload situation it would be easy to miss the lack of GS blue. Under the circumstances that is about your only protection till the EGPWS pipes up.
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Old 9th Feb 2024, 10:02
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Don't Mention The Loop

This would have been quite the flight for the SLF, according to this article on MSN: Far from being surprised, '"the crew were able to avoid a collision with the water at the last second and looped over Thonon once they regained altitude".

It's been a while since I flew any serious aerobatics but a well-flown 1g loop can be a work of art, indeed none of the passengers seem to have even noticed the gentle transition to and from the inverted state at the top of the loop, so it must have a perfect execution. Would that be in Normal Law, or...?

Speaking of which, was there an uptick in tea and biccies expenditure at the EJ Head Office that week? Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall.
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Old 9th Feb 2024, 10:32
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Originally Posted by TheGorrilla
That was the first thing that sprung to mind too. Had to fly the GS from above procedure many times into GVA. In a high workload situation it would be easy to miss the lack of GS blue. Under the circumstances that is about your only protection till the EGPWS pipes up.
Do pilots not look out of the windows any more?
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Old 9th Feb 2024, 13:15
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Originally Posted by TheGorrilla
That was the first thing that sprung to mind too. Had to fly the GS from above procedure many times into GVA. In a high workload situation it would be easy to miss the lack of GS blue. Under the circumstances that is about your only protection till the EGPWS pipes up.
You mean apart from looking at the flight data ?
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 00:11
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Windows! It appears that no one was looking at the flight instruments either.
Flew 100s of approaches into GVA and only had one interesting one during my line training on the comparatively draggy DC9 32 or 51 and that was from the south onto 05. When cleared from approach from the hold in icing conditions I elected to do a dirty dive rather than the full let down and intercepted the glide slope flying manually using the flight director. Temperature rose so anti icing off but at the outer marker check the altitude was wrong..checked QNH settings and realised that I was flying the 6 degree glide slope..ordered flight director off and closed the throttles..intercepted correct glide path probably some 500ft above minimums. All within company rules as stabilised criteria was landing configuration selected by 400ft. Nothing mentioned in the debrief but then the skipper and safety pilot flew hunters.
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 21:47
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Originally Posted by Owen61
This one is rather closer to home for me. Literally; I can see my house go by on the starboard side on final. I also have family in Scotland so am on this route a few times a year...
I was a bit surprised to learn that the altimeter reads out the ASL value and you have to subtract off the local elevation to get the actual height above the ground (or, in this case, lake). Do they still only have that spinny clock thing from the Spitfire days?
Altimeters work the same as they did in the 1930s and 40s, they tell you your altitude above sea level. Radar altimeters tell you your height above terrain. Having the altimeter read AGL would mean it would be jumping all over the place over any kind of hilly terrain and make traffic control impossible.
There are a few ways the pilots should have known they were flying too low, the glideslope instrument would have shown this, the radar altimeter (if they had one) would show this, and whatever type of terrain warning they had would show this. The plane I fly most of the time now would have had a screen full of red showing me too low. Landing strictly visually with no aids whatsoever it is very easy to get low over water, especially flat water, but they shouldn't have been doing that AFAIK.
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 21:58
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Originally Posted by island_airphoto
There are a few ways the pilots should have known they were flying too low, the glideslope instrument would have shown this, the radar altimeter (if they had one) would show this, and whatever type of terrain warning they had would show this.
I'm pretty sure they had a "radar altimeter".
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 22:38
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Originally Posted by speed13ird
I'm pretty sure they had a "radar altimeter".
Should have turned it on then
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 22:48
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er, it's required equipment for dispatch and it's not fitted with an "off switch", it's what makes the EGPWS work, are you some sort of twit?
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 22:55
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A nod's as good as a wink to a blind man...
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Old 11th Feb 2024, 08:58
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Originally Posted by speed13ird
I'm pretty sure they had a "radar altimeter".

A bit of an issue on a 320 if you don’t have at least one…
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 04:14
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Originally Posted by Speed_Trim_Fail
A bit of an issue on a 320 if you don’t have at least one…
I am amazed at how bad a design an aircraft can have when a loss of its two radalts has such significant consequence on aircraft handling.
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 09:04
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Originally Posted by punkalouver
I am amazed at how bad a design an aircraft can have when a loss of its two radalts has such significant consequence on aircraft handling.
Whilst there have undoubtedly been many far worse design decisions, I heartily agree.

I would start talking all misty eyed about the 737 Classic at this point but I’d be told to go back to LGW and stay there.
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 09:59
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Originally Posted by island_airphoto
Having the altimeter read AGL would mean it would be jumping all over the place over any kind of hilly terrain and make traffic control impossible.
Do you mean that airfield QFE settings vary across hilly terrain —yes of course they do. It’s difficult to tell, but maybe you meant that altimeters set to a QFE fluctuate wildly when flying over hilly terrain—which is complete nonsense! Barometric Altimeters are sensitive to the pressure (or ‘weight’) of the atmospheric column of air above them, not below them.


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Old 12th Feb 2024, 11:41
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Originally Posted by speed13ird
er, it's required equipment for dispatch and it's not fitted with an "off switch", it's what makes the EGPWS work, are you some sort of twit?
Low Range Radio Altimeter System (Not a radar altimeter) In my day 18 years ago with Classic B747 MMEL, Indicators Inop:- May be inoperative provided approach minimums or operating procedures do not require their use.
Receiver/Transmitter (R/T) Unit(s) May be inoperative provided:a) Dispatch deviation for GPWS inoperative is observed, b) Approach minimums or operating procedures do not require their use, and c) Operations are limited to not more than two flight days before repairs are made.
Of course some airports would not allow inop and I suspect GVA would not.
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