Other aviation hazards
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: The Sandpit
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oceanic Contingency Procedures
In substantial oversimplification:
1. If requisite deviation without clearance is Engine-failure-related, maneouvre to an appropriate level +/- 500.
2. If similar deviation is Weather-related, manoeuvre to an appropriate level +/- 300.
I know the reasoning behind both - but wouldn't it be simpler if the procedure was origin-independent?
1. If requisite deviation without clearance is Engine-failure-related, maneouvre to an appropriate level +/- 500.
2. If similar deviation is Weather-related, manoeuvre to an appropriate level +/- 300.
I know the reasoning behind both - but wouldn't it be simpler if the procedure was origin-independent?
(Sorry, I have an unfortunate predilection for puns. Mods are free to delete this before I do. (Well, they can anyway, but I formally don't mind))
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here, there, and everywhere
Posts: 1,124
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
7 Posts
So what you are saying is that when the airspace is peppered with aircraft, an aviator worth his salt will not change heading in an emergency descent, simply squawk on 7700 and R/T calf sign + emergency descent to 10.000 ft, and that cuts the mustard.
(Sorry, I have an unfortunate predilection for puns. Mods are free to delete this before I do. (Well, they can anyway, but I formally don't mind))
(Sorry, I have an unfortunate predilection for puns. Mods are free to delete this before I do. (Well, they can anyway, but I formally don't mind))
Uncertainty, unforeseen surprise
The greater hazard is in the unforeseen, and how we react.
With uncertainty, we, humans remain a hazard to ourselves - how we manage surprise.
This has always been so, but arguably reducing in line with safety tends.
Conversely where most of the easier situational hazards have been identified, those which might be encountered are more likely to be unseen, or discounted with erroneous reasoning, and thus a surprise.
There is increasing need to be prepared to be surprised and consider how we might respond.
Safety discussions (as in posts above) often overlook the urgency in situations which has been considered previously, which is reflected in procedures:
If - Then - Act. There is no need to double think situations, particularly where thinking might be in short supply when surprised.
An emergency descent is based on physiological needs, not traffic density. Beware false reasoning.
With uncertainty, we, humans remain a hazard to ourselves - how we manage surprise.
This has always been so, but arguably reducing in line with safety tends.
Conversely where most of the easier situational hazards have been identified, those which might be encountered are more likely to be unseen, or discounted with erroneous reasoning, and thus a surprise.
There is increasing need to be prepared to be surprised and consider how we might respond.
Safety discussions (as in posts above) often overlook the urgency in situations which has been considered previously, which is reflected in procedures:
If - Then - Act. There is no need to double think situations, particularly where thinking might be in short supply when surprised.
An emergency descent is based on physiological needs, not traffic density. Beware false reasoning.
It goes on to discuss Mayday and Pan Pan so change is slowly coming but old habits are hard to break.
Join Date: Jan 2024
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bit like position and hold and line up and wait, behind. Never had a problem with the former tbh. It’s the States, do what you have to do. Respect to the Kennedy ground, tower and area controllers. (from a foreigner)
74757677,
My Son flies 777’s internationally. He says that in the UK tower will request a crew to “Line up and wait behind the landing BA 747 for ex. Or he says they’ll even issue a clearance to “
line up and wait behind the second 737 landing”.
Is this true? It would seem to me that could be problematic if a crew gets the sequence wrong?
My Son flies 777’s internationally. He says that in the UK tower will request a crew to “Line up and wait behind the landing BA 747 for ex. Or he says they’ll even issue a clearance to “
line up and wait behind the second 737 landing”.
Is this true? It would seem to me that could be problematic if a crew gets the sequence wrong?
74757677,
My Son flies 777’s internationally. He says that in the UK tower will request a crew to “Line up and wait behind the landing BA 747 for ex. Or he says they’ll even issue a clearance to “
line up and wait behind the second 737 landing”.
Is this true? It would seem to me that could be problematic if a crew gets the sequence wrong?
My Son flies 777’s internationally. He says that in the UK tower will request a crew to “Line up and wait behind the landing BA 747 for ex. Or he says they’ll even issue a clearance to “
line up and wait behind the second 737 landing”.
Is this true? It would seem to me that could be problematic if a crew gets the sequence wrong?
The phraseology is
Atc
ABC123 Behind the landing X, line up and wait behind.
Response
A/c
Behind the landing X line up and wait behind.
Behind is emphasised twice, and the stop bar only deselected as the landing aircraft passes the holding point.
This can only be used in appropriate weather conditions, and when used with landing traffic for the first aircraft to land only.
In the US, any sort of “MayDay or Pan Pan” elicits the same response: “Understand you are declaring an emergency, what is the nature of your emergency and what are your intentions”. It is not a graded response, and will get you a great deal of attention in even the most densely occupied airspace. ATC will accommodate you quickly, get you what you need and get everybody out of your way (and you to a more discreet frequency and, if practical, location, with sufficient alacrity to keep the system functioning safely and efficiently.)
Aviate, Navigate and Communicate (in that order) are the expected procedures.
Been there, Done that, Got the T-shirt…
Aviate, Navigate and Communicate (in that order) are the expected procedures.
Been there, Done that, Got the T-shirt…
Last edited by 421dog; 9th Jan 2024 at 23:54.
Jumpseater,
Thank You for your response. My Son said the clearance he was given to by Stanstead Tower was line a up and wait after the second landing traffic. I’ll pass on to him that that clearance is not correct and not to accept it.
Thank You for your response. My Son said the clearance he was given to by Stanstead Tower was line a up and wait after the second landing traffic. I’ll pass on to him that that clearance is not correct and not to accept it.
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what you are saying is that when the airspace is peppered with aircraft, an aviator worth his salt will not change heading in an emergency descent, simply squawk on 7700 and R/T calf sign + emergency descent to 10.000 ft, and that cuts the mustard.
(Sorry, I have an unfortunate predilection for puns. Mods are free to delete this before I do. (Well, they can anyway, but I formally don't mind))
(Sorry, I have an unfortunate predilection for puns. Mods are free to delete this before I do. (Well, they can anyway, but I formally don't mind))
The best we found is the 7700 squawk. and an initial call using your real call sign . What we found at the time is that in a real emergency , in stress pilots are often automatically reverting to the dummy call sign used in the SIM when practicing that emergency ..
It is remotely possible that Stansted have a local procedure within their Mats Part2 that allows this variation, but I’d be very surprised.