Alaska Airlines 737-900 MAX loses a door in-flight out of PDX
The confusion about up or down movement of the door-plug could be in where the roller and where the guide is mounted. The roller is on the door frame and the guide on the door-plug and since the guide is open at the bottom the door-plug must move up to clear the frame mounted roller. Hence in closed position there is a small gap (with a gasket) at the top between the door frame and door-plug to allow this upwards movement. So the lift-assist springs would apply a force that would open the door-plug and not one that would keep it in place. This also have the ressult that all 4 (missing) bolts (including the ones on the spring guides) stops the door-plug from moving upwards.
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I experienced a ISO 9000 certification audit, and the first thing the inspector said upon arrival was something along the lines of: "Don't be concerned, I'm not here to find evidence you are not compliant, I'm here to find evidence you are compliant.". And he wasn't lying, that's exactly what he did.
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I experienced a ISO 9000 certification audit, and the first thing the inspector said upon arrival was something along the lines of: "Don't be concerned, I'm not here to find evidence you are not compliant, I'm here to find evidence you are compliant.". And he wasn't lying, that's exactly what he did.
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ISO 9000/9001 is more about ticking boxes than actually guaranteeing quality . Processes are in place yes but not the actual results of the quality control .
I learned that the hard way , in the end of the 90s I bought a SAAB car 9.3 cabio which was at the time one of the first cars to have installed those parking "radar" sensors on the back bumper which were back phatic rings in those days f. A few months later , someone hit the back of my car in a parking lot, , no big deal insurance would pay for the repair ,which included repainting the bumper. The garage that that did the job was well known and had a large banner on the entrance : "we are now ISO 9001 certified!" boosting their new status. When I got the car back, immediately when putting it on reverse the sensors activated and beeped. The garage had painted over the sensors . When I complained they said they were not aware of the sensors, and it was not their problem.. . When I mentioned the ISO banner and the quality control , , they said , yes we did exactly what we promised , repaired and painted, the bumper, the quality of the repair and the paint is OK no ? So much for ISO certification.
I learned that the hard way , in the end of the 90s I bought a SAAB car 9.3 cabio which was at the time one of the first cars to have installed those parking "radar" sensors on the back bumper which were back phatic rings in those days f. A few months later , someone hit the back of my car in a parking lot, , no big deal insurance would pay for the repair ,which included repainting the bumper. The garage that that did the job was well known and had a large banner on the entrance : "we are now ISO 9001 certified!" boosting their new status. When I got the car back, immediately when putting it on reverse the sensors activated and beeped. The garage had painted over the sensors . When I complained they said they were not aware of the sensors, and it was not their problem.. . When I mentioned the ISO banner and the quality control , , they said , yes we did exactly what we promised , repaired and painted, the bumper, the quality of the repair and the paint is OK no ? So much for ISO certification.
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As a former ISO 9001 auditor then I must say, at least in our culture, this is the way forward. The task of the assessor is not only see if the work done corresponds to the processes described. The task is as well to improve the processes and the way of doing things. If people feel that the assessor just tries to find errors, then they will shut up, and not provide information about the actual work. This will not create a better way of doing things.
Last edited by MikeSnow; 2nd Mar 2024 at 17:21. Reason: fix grammar error
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OK. My experience, working on cruise ships, was that the main audit was for our head office and when we had an onboard audit they just wanted to know how well we understood the company's Safety Management Sytem and if we felt we could report any issues. The company had to have an SMS and it had to prove that it was policed and subject to continuous review and improvement.. My company was part of a large group and the auditors always came from separate operating companies so I newer knew any of them.
Is seem to me that an individual garage would not be ISO 9000 certified, but it's parent company could be. Marine safety is heavily influenced by the aviation industry and we have copied the crew resource management.
On the Bridge, the Navigating Officers practice the equivalent of a sterile cockpit and all decisions are verbalised so the Officer of the Watch can expect to be challenged by his junior ir there is doubt. It did not quite translate to activities in the engine control room where we were not involved directly in navigating the ship. All the machinery ran fully automated and me not need to make decisions unless there was a serious fault. Even in a blackout, it was better for the watchkeepers to let the computers restore power in a set and complex order although we could do it manually.
Is seem to me that an individual garage would not be ISO 9000 certified, but it's parent company could be. Marine safety is heavily influenced by the aviation industry and we have copied the crew resource management.
On the Bridge, the Navigating Officers practice the equivalent of a sterile cockpit and all decisions are verbalised so the Officer of the Watch can expect to be challenged by his junior ir there is doubt. It did not quite translate to activities in the engine control room where we were not involved directly in navigating the ship. All the machinery ran fully automated and me not need to make decisions unless there was a serious fault. Even in a blackout, it was better for the watchkeepers to let the computers restore power in a set and complex order although we could do it manually.
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Shares of Boeing down and Spirit up with both large transaction volumes
Just seeing that wondered if there was any news blaming Boeing and absolving Spirit.
Significant change … no news ?
Significant change … no news ?
Boeing recently announced that they are in talks to buy back Spirit.
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Last edited by MarineEngineer; 6th Mar 2024 at 16:59.
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Alternative link to article in Flight International:-
ntsb-chair-slams-boeing-for-failing-to-supply-information-about-failed-door-plug
ntsb-chair-slams-boeing-for-failing-to-supply-information-about-failed-door-plug
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“All their security camera footage is erased after 30 days, and overridden..." And? Perhaps overwritten, though not sure either would be necessary after erasure. Ah, the purity of language...
"On 6 March, Homendy also said the NTSB has “engaged our attorneys” because Spirit failed to disclose that technicians who performed the rivet rework were not employed by Spirit, but rather by three other firms. Those others were engineering services provider AeroTec, aerospace staffing firm Strom Aviation, and “Launch”, also an apparent staffing firm."
Probably Aerotek, a nation wide staffing firm, not AeroTec.
There is an AeroTEC (Aerospace Testing Engineering & Certification Inc.) that does engineering support in Washington state, but it doesn't look like they supply riveters.
I wonder if the contract with Spirit precluded contract employees on the assembly line. It does make some sense for Spirit to use contract workers as the contract workers likely live in the area so Spirit would not have to move them from Tulsa or go through the hiring process and manage so much that goes with out-of-state employees.
That this is getting to the point the NTSB is preparing to fire photon torpedoes at Spirit is a sad situation for aerospace. This is not a situation where a crash site has 1000s of tiny fragments and nothing to go on. Everything about the incident itself is rather well known. What isn't known is how it started so that future, similar starts can be avoided. Someone removed the door/plug; someone put it back. It's best to understand why they did it and why it was done incompletely.
Spirit should know who did these tasks and those people need to be interviewed by NTSB.
"“Boeing has not provided us with the documents and information that we have requested numerous times over the past few months, specifically with respect to opening, closing and removal of the door [plug], and the team that does that work at the Renton facility,” NTSB chair Jennifer Homendy told US lawmakers on 6 March."
"She says a Boeing team of 25 people and a manager in Renton oversee 737 doors."
Which seems right, but this isn't one of the doors that Boeing appears to deal with so Boeing would not have information about opening, closing, and removal at Renton if their team does not do that work. Seems simple enough to confirm that is the case and tie off that thread for the NTSB and continue into Spirit.
A possible reason both are clammed up is that the riveters from one of the contracting agencies asked a favor from a worker at Boeing to help get the door out of the way. No work-order, no procedure, and the Boeing worker isn't a door guy. This would expose both companies for having off-procedure work being done and would not have triggered an inspection of the re-install because, per the records, no work had been done. At some point another Spirit worker noted the damaged seal and got and installed a replacement with a work order, but this is when they would find no removal work order for the door/plug, so they couldn't generate an install work order.
Probably Aerotek, a nation wide staffing firm, not AeroTec.
There is an AeroTEC (Aerospace Testing Engineering & Certification Inc.) that does engineering support in Washington state, but it doesn't look like they supply riveters.
I wonder if the contract with Spirit precluded contract employees on the assembly line. It does make some sense for Spirit to use contract workers as the contract workers likely live in the area so Spirit would not have to move them from Tulsa or go through the hiring process and manage so much that goes with out-of-state employees.
That this is getting to the point the NTSB is preparing to fire photon torpedoes at Spirit is a sad situation for aerospace. This is not a situation where a crash site has 1000s of tiny fragments and nothing to go on. Everything about the incident itself is rather well known. What isn't known is how it started so that future, similar starts can be avoided. Someone removed the door/plug; someone put it back. It's best to understand why they did it and why it was done incompletely.
Spirit should know who did these tasks and those people need to be interviewed by NTSB.
"“Boeing has not provided us with the documents and information that we have requested numerous times over the past few months, specifically with respect to opening, closing and removal of the door [plug], and the team that does that work at the Renton facility,” NTSB chair Jennifer Homendy told US lawmakers on 6 March."
"She says a Boeing team of 25 people and a manager in Renton oversee 737 doors."
Which seems right, but this isn't one of the doors that Boeing appears to deal with so Boeing would not have information about opening, closing, and removal at Renton if their team does not do that work. Seems simple enough to confirm that is the case and tie off that thread for the NTSB and continue into Spirit.
A possible reason both are clammed up is that the riveters from one of the contracting agencies asked a favor from a worker at Boeing to help get the door out of the way. No work-order, no procedure, and the Boeing worker isn't a door guy. This would expose both companies for having off-procedure work being done and would not have triggered an inspection of the re-install because, per the records, no work had been done. At some point another Spirit worker noted the damaged seal and got and installed a replacement with a work order, but this is when they would find no removal work order for the door/plug, so they couldn't generate an install work order.
A possible reason both are clammed up is that the riveters from one of the contracting agencies asked a favor from a worker at Boeing to help get the door out of the way. No work-order, no procedure, and the Boeing worker isn't a door guy. This would expose both companies for having off-procedure work being done and would not have triggered an inspection of the re-install because, per the records, no work had been done. At some point another Spirit worker noted the damaged seal and got and installed a replacement with a work order, but this is when they would find no removal work order for the door/plug, so they couldn't generate an install work order.
As bad as that is, the good news is that it's pretty easy to fix - make sure that everyone DOES THE
PAPERWORK!!!Join Date: Jul 2013
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"Boeing has not provided us with the documents and information that we have requested numerous times over the past few months, specifically with respect to opening, closing and removal of the door [plug], and the team that does that work at the Renton facility,” NTSB chair Jennifer Homendy told US lawmakers on 6 March. (emphasis added)
I would suggest that the non-compliance, if Chair Homendy's description of it is correct, completely justifies getting lawyer-ed up.
I would suggest that the non-compliance, if Chair Homendy's description of it is correct, completely justifies getting lawyer-ed up.
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Well the bad news is that nobody will be able to do the
PAPERWORK when the said paperwork is not issued 😇I take this opportunity to thank you a lot for the very informative insights you are providing us with 👍
It's more a matter of not performing factory work without the paperwork. If it's not on the paper it doesn't get done.
It's the adult version of Simon Says. If Simon didn't say "remove the bolts" the bolts don't get removed.
It's the adult version of Simon Says. If Simon didn't say "remove the bolts" the bolts don't get removed.
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If neither the NTSB nor FAA use the above gem in a forthcoming report, it will prove that it is indeed a prerequisite for government bureaucratic work to be humourless.
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Cantwell on Wednesday reiterated she plans to call Calhoun to testify at a future hearing.