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Four dead in Austrian crash

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Four dead in Austrian crash

Old 1st Dec 2023, 10:48
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Originally Posted by treadigraph
It was the Sierra de Guadarrama north of Madrid that caught Williams out.
I've often wondered whether Neil Williams was a victim of incapacitation of some sort - medical problem or CO poisoning. He was a very capable operator and in the view of some observers it's unlikely the accident was purely the result of incompetence or misjudgement.

Here are some of Neil's articles as published in Shell Aviation News.
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Old 29th Dec 2023, 13:02
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Originally Posted by markkal
No way to cross the alps under the prevailing conditions of strong wind overcast clouds closing the valleys and freezing temperatures, It was a no go for any GA piston aircraft even in IFR. How did the pilot dare to plan such a flight I really cannot understand.
Itís easy to understand, someone was paying him to do it.
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Old 29th Dec 2023, 14:45
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Originally Posted by mryan75
Itís easy to understand, someone was paying him to do it.
I was referring to the lack of common sense and judgement....As for the costs for a round trip such as this one, what he asked couvered at most the expenses....
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Old 29th Dec 2023, 17:08
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20 years ago when I last flew GA aircraft in Europe, a basic IFR capable 4 seater aircraft would cost around 300 Euros per hour. For a 5h roundtrip, a 900 Euro cost contribution would therefore have been more than qualifying for running the flight under cost sharing. The advertisement on social media however would not have been ok. No idea if these rules have changed in any way since then.
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Old 30th Dec 2023, 01:22
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Originally Posted by Discorde
I've often wondered whether Neil Williams was a victim of incapacitation of some sort - medical problem or CO poisoning. He was a very capable operator and in the view of some observers it's unlikely the accident was purely the result of incompetence or misjudgement.

Here are some of Neil's articles as published in Shell Aviation News.
I was told by someone who was a friend of Neil's, that they had been requested (not by Neil) to lend an altimeter that was appropriate to the type so Neil could make the flight. The individual with the altimeter did not have confidence that it was serviceable and refused to lend it. Between that time and the time of the flight, the altimeter was stolen from their home. There was no suggestion that Neil was aware of this.
I've always wondered why an altimeter specific to the aircraft type would be necessary and why an alternative would have been at all difficult to source elsewhere.

Last edited by Mechta; 30th Dec 2023 at 11:50.
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Old 30th Dec 2023, 08:46
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Originally Posted by physicus
20 years ago when I last flew GA aircraft in Europe, a basic IFR capable 4 seater aircraft would cost around 300 Euros per hour. For a 5h roundtrip, a 900 Euro cost contribution would therefore have been more than qualifying for running the flight under cost sharing. The advertisement on social media however would not have been ok. No idea if these rules have changed in any way since then.
Indeed 20 years ago, as for today consider that AVGAS alone is about 3 euros a liter that about 3,30 $ for a quart.....and prices have gone up steadily and skyrocketed after covid.
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Old 30th Dec 2023, 09:41
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Originally Posted by Discorde
I've often wondered whether Neil Williams was a victim of incapacitation of some sort - medical problem or CO poisoning. He was a very capable operator and in the view of some observers it's unlikely the accident was purely the result of incompetence or misjudgement.

Here are some of Neil's articles as published in Shell Aviation News.
Many well respected pilots have `bought the farm`. Hoof Proudfoot, Norman Lees, Guy Bancroft-Smith, David Moore, Mark Hannah. A bad day in an airplane can be a very bad day.
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Old 30th Dec 2023, 09:58
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Originally Posted by DogTailRed2
Many well respected pilots have `bought the farm`. Hoof Proudfoot, Norman Lees, Guy Bancroft-Smith, David Moore, Mark Hannah. A bad day in an airplane can be a very bad day.
Just a gentle nudge, no offence intended but don't you mean Guy Bancroft-Wilson...
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Old 30th Dec 2023, 10:10
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Originally Posted by Mechta
I've always wondered why an altimeter specific to the aircraft type would be necessary and why an alternative would have been at all difficult to source elsewhere.
Neil's write up of ferrying Doug Arnold's first 2111 from Spain to Blackbushe refers (as I recall) to metric instrumentation, can't recall if that included the altimeter (I've never seen a metric altimeter - do they exist?) but if so perhaps he was keen to have something easier to read? The first ferry was in June '76, the crash was in December '77. He also ferried two across the Atlantic in the Autumn of '77. I must reread Airborne - away tomorrow night, I'll tuck it in my bag!
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Old 30th Dec 2023, 10:21
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Originally Posted by treadigraph
I've never seen a metric altimeter - do they exist?
Yes, you often see them in gliders in Europe.
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Old 30th Dec 2023, 10:23
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I've never seen a metric altimeter - do they exist?
Yes, they do. All the ones I’ve seen are like this, with Zero at the bottom and the big hand revolving once per 1000m. That alone must be confusing, never mind doing the mental arithmetic to convert to feet.

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Old 30th Dec 2023, 11:19
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Originally Posted by markkal
I was referring to the lack of common sense and judgement....As for the costs for a round trip such as this one, what he asked couvered at most the expenses....
So is this an example of the extra pressures that come from "selling" your flight to people you don't know? It might be technically a cost sharing flight, but that FB post (#14) reads like an advert to me
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Old 30th Dec 2023, 13:04
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UV India Four Two Thanks!
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Old 30th Dec 2023, 13:42
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Actually flying a metric cockpit in a glider in the alps is far easier than a uk one.
The topos are more like hiking maps with the spot heights in metres; they are annotated with amongst other things the out landing fields again in metres and concentric 10km circles.
The asi is again in metres and the vario in metres per second.
Normal advice is to work with 50% of glide ratio..so 20.
Calculation works..height difference say 2000m x 20 = 40km autonomy.
120kph with 2M/S sink = 60 to 1 glide ratio.
An out landing not in a federation maintained field is often fatal so you make sure that you always have an option using the circles and a quick bit of mental calcs.

As to Neil I was instructing on Condors at Blackbushe in my spare time when he went inÖconsensus at the time was that he had got caught out by the WAT curve and intricacies of mountain flying not unlike Tante Ju in the Swiss alps a couple of years ago.

One needs luck at times.

PS we had to use tables to convert clearances in Metres to feet, FL into altitudes and M/S into knots flying in the gripper into Moscow in the 70s.
IIRC we received approach clearances in Metres standard which had to be converted to FT/ QNH and then FT/QFE whilst doing the change hands monitored approach plus writing everything downÖhappy days..
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Old 30th Dec 2023, 14:38
  #35 (permalink)  
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On cost sharing , the EASA definition is putting the emphasis on " Sharing " , but does not define the percentage, while in a 2 seater it is obvious , 50% each, for a 4 seater is it 75% of 50% ? in some aeroclubs using Wiggly , the rule it can't be more that 50% regardless of the number or pax sharing.

In regards to metric , most Continental European build GA aircraft have metric instrumentation , and all gliders are . so meters/seconds, Km/h and altitude in meters. The Gliders maps are in meters , and in the Alps all elevations in the maps are metric. Germany DFS publish all its VFR maps in both metric and feet versions., etc,

As to meter altimeters :
All the ones I’ve seen are like this, with Zero at the bottom and the big hand revolving once per 1000m. That alone must be confusing, never mind doing the mental arithmetic to convert to feet
No most have the Zero on the top, , only Winter the German manufacturer has its metric altimeters with zero at the bottom ., and its feet altimeter's with zero on top , that is to differentiate them as motor gliders often have both (e.g the Stemme ) .
As to converting the head it just practice. I fly regularly various types of aircraft with 3 different instrumentations , a PA18 in MPH , a Robin DR400 in Km/h and a Breezer in Knots. Not really a problem.
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Old 30th Dec 2023, 20:42
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Originally Posted by wiggy
Just a gentle nudge, no offence intended but don't you mean Guy Bancroft-Wilson...
Yes. Thanks for the correction. No offence intended.
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Old 31st Dec 2023, 17:48
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Originally Posted by DogTailRed2
Many well respected pilots have `bought the farm`. Hoof Proudfoot, Norman Lees, Guy Bancroft-Smith, David Moore, Mark Hannah. A bad day in an airplane can be a very bad day.
Iím not sure airshow flying of warbirds is the same as a PPL trying to fly across mountains with some iffy cost sharing .

That online platform wingly always seems like a bad idea - Iím certain when thereís the inevitable crash the relatives will moan they thought it was an airline
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Old 31st Dec 2023, 19:27
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Originally Posted by Prob30Tempo TSRA
Iím not sure airshow flying of warbirds is the same as a PPL trying to fly across mountains with some iffy cost sharing .

That online platform wingly always seems like a bad idea - Iím certain when thereís the inevitable crash the relatives will moan they thought it was an airline
The comparison was with the Neil Williams accident and the suggestion incapacitation might explain it.
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Old 1st Jan 2024, 08:30
  #39 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by treadigraph
Neil's write up of ferrying Doug Arnold's first 2111 from Spain to Blackbushe refers (as I recall) to metric instrumentation,
Had a skim, can't seen any references to metric instrumentation, most of the problems seem to have been translating the Pilots' notes, even a Spanish aerobatic pilot who'd flown the 2111 years earlier had difficulty with them.

Must have been somebody else who had to figure out metric altimeters.
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