Tui runway excursion at Leeds Bradford 20/10/23
CG
The crosswind limits are for steady wind not gusts. Its impossible to know the actual crosswind at point of landing in a 737 NG. You use the tower reported wind. Today the wind was gusting and I would be very surprised if the reported wind was outside the operations manual limitations. It will be interesting to see the final report but I seem to remember that you were supposed to cancel reverse if you were having directional problems on rollout. This is not intuitive on a short wet runway.
The crosswind limits are for steady wind not gusts. Its impossible to know the actual crosswind at point of landing in a 737 NG. You use the tower reported wind. Today the wind was gusting and I would be very surprised if the reported wind was outside the operations manual limitations. It will be interesting to see the final report but I seem to remember that you were supposed to cancel reverse if you were having directional problems on rollout. This is not intuitive on a short wet runway.
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There are differences not just between airlines but also manufacturers regarding crosswinds. I was a captain for quite a while on the NG and my memory without digging out the manuals was that these were demonstrated not hard limits. There was quite a lot of judgement necessary at times not least because the tower in certain places would report winds that were not always plausible. I used to have the readout on the FMC open with the wind value. We have discussed on other threads why this value is not always to be relied on but combined with the visual picture it can inform judgement. What I would say is that having been to Leeds quite a bit on the 737 you need your best game on days like today.
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I was based at LBA for many years, including a stint as Base Captain for a former UK regional airline. In that latter role I was, along with other airline representatIves, once sent a letter asking how runway markings and lighting could be improved. I replied that the only way to make the runway better would be to slice off the threshold of RW 32 (along with a bit of the local golf course), flip it over to the threshold of RW 14, demolish the terminal and rotate the whole runway, so that it pointed into wind. A facetious suggestion since there isn’t room, but it amused me for a while. I also suggested that concrete was not a good runway surface because it doesn’t drain. Needless to say my advice was not heeded.
Joking apart, LBA’s runway is shamefully inadequate, and a challenge even for experienced pilots in moderate weather. It annoys me intensely that plans for new terminals (see recent press releases) with shiny shops have always been such a misplaced priority.
Joking apart, LBA’s runway is shamefully inadequate, and a challenge even for experienced pilots in moderate weather. It annoys me intensely that plans for new terminals (see recent press releases) with shiny shops have always been such a misplaced priority.
Can’t see what Steve1968 said to which you took exception. You are not safely landed when the wheels touch the tarmac, and careful briefing of possible scenarios can only prepare you for possible problems.
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It looks like the wind was 070/17 gusting 30 and wet. They landed on Runway 14.
I remember when the Airtours Tristar went off the end of runway 14 in May 1985. I flew into LBA the following day in a Fokker F27 and had to land on the cross runway 28 which I see no longer exists. We had to do a water methanol takeoff to get airborne on 28.
The following is just a possibility. The Tui landed with autobrake selected. The far end was coming up a little faster than they would have liked and the handling pilot took out the autobrake to apply max manual braking. He would have needed quite a lot of right rudder to avoid weathercocking into wind. It is hard to apply full braking evenly when you have a boot full of rudder applied, especially on the pedal furthest away from you.
I remember when the Airtours Tristar went off the end of runway 14 in May 1985. I flew into LBA the following day in a Fokker F27 and had to land on the cross runway 28 which I see no longer exists. We had to do a water methanol takeoff to get airborne on 28.
The following is just a possibility. The Tui landed with autobrake selected. The far end was coming up a little faster than they would have liked and the handling pilot took out the autobrake to apply max manual braking. He would have needed quite a lot of right rudder to avoid weathercocking into wind. It is hard to apply full braking evenly when you have a boot full of rudder applied, especially on the pedal furthest away from you.
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I’ve read on socials that the pilot came out and said he thought he was running out of runway so took it onto the grass.
An LTE airbus did the same back in 2005. The crew mentioned not seeing the end of the runway due the dip.
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=20050518-1
You can’t see the end of 14 as you approach Delta, it goes up hill then dips away again.
A Ryanair planted his nose gear in roughly the same spot a year or so ago, he though was attempting the turn to Delta at high speed and balls’d it up.
Tui don’t have a base at Leeds so it certainly was an out of base crew.
2 heavy lifting cranes are on site to try shift it.
An LTE airbus did the same back in 2005. The crew mentioned not seeing the end of the runway due the dip.
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=20050518-1
You can’t see the end of 14 as you approach Delta, it goes up hill then dips away again.
A Ryanair planted his nose gear in roughly the same spot a year or so ago, he though was attempting the turn to Delta at high speed and balls’d it up.
Tui don’t have a base at Leeds so it certainly was an out of base crew.
2 heavy lifting cranes are on site to try shift it.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
LBA is maybe the most challenging (non island) runway that sees scheduled jet CAT traffic in the U.K. I have operated three different airliner types into Leeds over the past two decades. It can be very challenging in stormy weather and for someone who is unfamiliar with the runway profile, it can catch you out. It is definitely not somewhere you want to spend an extended time in the flare enjoying the view.
As mentioned above, the AAIB report is the only public source where there will be enough detail available to reach an informed opinion.
As mentioned above, the AAIB report is the only public source where there will be enough detail available to reach an informed opinion.
If you want the AAIB report you are on the wrong site; in about a year you will get the report. Until then, this area is for general discussion where there is plenty to learn from the experience and thoughts of others.
Psychophysiological entity
Rivets, also 84, has a memory of LBA that's so vivid it's as though I'm replaying the tape. 80's, in an F27. Night schedule.
Being checked by charming Chas from ABZ I'd been using huge handfuls of power during the approach onto 15. I recall telling our regulars that there was no bad weather about, it's just high winds coming off the hills that's making the air curly and if it exceeds certain limits I'd buzz off to Teesside. I was so full of BS.
Everything seemed okay when I landed - except the end of the runway was racing towards us in a strange an unnatural way. Tower's comment about 60 kts on the rear quarter just added to the dreamlike state. On the centreline. Pulling on the power levers fit to pull them out by the roots. Years on 1-11's counted for nothing. The reversers just were not working . . . or even fitted.
We were told to keep an eye out for the airstairs, last seen tumbling into the darkness. Our little girl needed Elastoplasts and Dettol, and a bloke hauling on smaller stairs was dispatched.
Immages of my memories still flood in. In the moments before coming to a standstill, I'd been recalling what the lighting poles look like when approaching from the other direction. How tall they were, and how tangled up one would be if subsiding onto them. These are just the kind of thoughts that could tempt one into taking a heavy bit of kit into the mud.
Being checked by charming Chas from ABZ I'd been using huge handfuls of power during the approach onto 15. I recall telling our regulars that there was no bad weather about, it's just high winds coming off the hills that's making the air curly and if it exceeds certain limits I'd buzz off to Teesside. I was so full of BS.
Everything seemed okay when I landed - except the end of the runway was racing towards us in a strange an unnatural way. Tower's comment about 60 kts on the rear quarter just added to the dreamlike state. On the centreline. Pulling on the power levers fit to pull them out by the roots. Years on 1-11's counted for nothing. The reversers just were not working . . . or even fitted.
We were told to keep an eye out for the airstairs, last seen tumbling into the darkness. Our little girl needed Elastoplasts and Dettol, and a bloke hauling on smaller stairs was dispatched.
Immages of my memories still flood in. In the moments before coming to a standstill, I'd been recalling what the lighting poles look like when approaching from the other direction. How tall they were, and how tangled up one would be if subsiding onto them. These are just the kind of thoughts that could tempt one into taking a heavy bit of kit into the mud.