Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Another Close Call...?

Old 11th Mar 2023, 00:39
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Another Close Call...?

Could be considered another close one, or just a simple non-event...?

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Old 11th Mar 2023, 01:22
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From that audio alone, sounds like a repeat of the recent Boston event. Envoy cleared to line up and wait - on a different runway, unlike Portland or Austin - but began takeoff instead.

However the comms audio is incomplete (again!) at that critical point, making what actually happened a bit foggy for the moment. Did Envoy make an uncaptured readback? And what was it? Did Envoy mishear the "landing traffic on crossing runway" and think they had to make an no-delay takeoff because the landing aircraft was behind them on final?

Controller seemed slightly shaken (initially called Southwest as Skywest, asked Southwest if he (the controller) had made a mistake that led to the GA). But call-sign mixups do happen, and I expect the recent slew of events has left everyone a little nervous and gunshy.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 01:59
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Interesting audio.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 02:02
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Certainly a runway incursion (which average about 3/day due to pilot deviation) but not a close call. SWA initiated go around at RW4 threshold at about 150 ft AGL and crossed 13R at about 450 ft AGL. Envoy departed about 30 minutes later after the obligatory ATC spanking.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 12:00
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So what is actually going on right now ?
Sloppy ATC or sloppy piloting !

Or perhaps "system overload" ?

El G.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 12:42
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Originally Posted by El Grifo
So what is actually going on right now ?
Sloppy ATC or sloppy piloting !

Or perhaps "system overload" ?

El G.
Perhaps just more intense media coverage recently due to a couple of high profile incidents in among the normal amount of incidents.

Have you not noticed that the media forever needs a crisis for profit. Ukraine is losing interest, there is no election, no riots, no Covid coverage, etc. Monkeypox flamed out, there hasn’t been a terrorist attack for a while, climate change has lost viewership interest, and we are in between mass shootings. During the In Between times, a new focus( or multiple new focuses - or is it focusi) is needed to get viewers. Airline crashes used to be great for getting viewers and analysis for a few weeks but sadly for the media, they just don’t happen much anymore.

I guarantee you that even if the number and severity of incidents remains the same, after a few months, the media will reduce coverage because of reduced viewership and look for a new focus to get their clicks and viewership back toward a higher level.

Maybe a newly discovered meteorite that could potentially kill us all will be the focus for a few years or another Y2K type scenario that could harm millions. Think of how many ads you watched during the media coverage of that.

It is all part of the fake news, designed to keep you forever worried and forever watching them. Of course, it is all because they care about you.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 13:05
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Originally Posted by El Grifo
So what is actually going on right now ?
Sloppy ATC or sloppy piloting !
I think the expression you're looking for is "business as usual".
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 13:32
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While this doesn't appear to be as close as the incidents in BOS, AUS and JFK, it is concerning that another jet aircraft began a takeoff roll at a busy airport without hearing the magic words "cleared for takeoff ". But the other three incidents were about as serious as one can have short of an actual accident. One analysis determined that all three incidents were 4 seconds OR LESS from two airplanes occupying the same space at the same time.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 13:44
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It is all part of the fake news, designed to keep you forever worried and forever watching them. Of course, it is all because they care about you.
Prob not fake news, but I understand the sentiment completely punkalouver

I think the expression you're looking for is "business as usual".
I had no idea that "business" was in such a shaky state Dave Reid UK !!!!

​​​​​​​El G.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 14:22
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Originally Posted by El Grifo
Or perhaps "system overload" ?
Would dare to go more with the above.

'Capacity' and 'Safety' are vectors that pull in opposite directions.

The normal way of thinking is to push for more and more capacity.
-We produced '100' and it was all Ok.
-Lets try to produce '110'. Well, no problems there.
-Why the hell not trying '120' and see how it works.
The exercise of finding of how far it is possible to go, until problems, or events, start to appear.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 15:43
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The time in which we are living zerograv !!

El G.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 17:10
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Perhaps a 'traffic light' system would help to prevent unauthorised take-off incidents: a red/green light positioned adjacent to the threshold. So verbal 'clear take off' from the controller PLUS green light (activated by controller) means off you go.

Apologies if this has already been suggested.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 17:15
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It doesn't hurt to remember that "clumping" of anything is a perfectly normal characteristic of a RANDOM distribution.

I.E. if there are, say, 365 serious air traffic conflicts per year, that does not mean there will be a consistent seven per week or one per day - more likely a week with three and then a week with 11 - even excluding all other possible factors (season, time of day, etc.)

Add to that that humans are hypervigilant to possible patterns. Probably an evolved response for spotting tigers in the grass or Gaboon vipers in the leaves (those with hypervigilance to patterns tended to have better survival rates), but also a cause of "conspiracy theories." It is better to shy away from harmless things ten times, than get bitten once.

That is probably a factor in the recent "media awareness" - as well as simply an increase in media overall (including the "freelance reporters" of VASAviation, Aviation Herald, Blancolirio, FR24, and social media in general).

The problem is that patterns can also be a sign of real systemic dangers (sometimes there really is a viper in the leaves).

So the wheat has to be sorted from the chaff.

All of the above posts may be factors. So may disruptions of staffing over, and because of, the past three years, including "The Great Resignation." More "newbies" in cockpits or towers (regardless of gender, color etc.). Fewer people in towers to aid and supervise.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 20:53
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I'm not hammering on anything, because pattern_is_full just nailed it.

But let it also be recalled that media and related platforms became somewhat fixated on U.S. commercial aviation as a result of the widely publicized problems Southwest experienced when its system became quite dis-synchronized (a/k/a "meltdown"), and then within a short time later the ground-stop was ordered when the NOTAMs system broke down.

It was as if some giant-size Hollywood director of the NAS had said, "Lights! Camera! Action!" and the Incident gods obliged.
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Old 12th Mar 2023, 00:46
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it is concerning that another jet aircraft began a takeoff roll at a busy airport without hearing the magic words "cleared for takeoff "
It happens, friend took off from a major national airport without hearing the magic phrase that wasn't given in a jet fighter early '70's. Early '90's was stood whilst waiting for my flight watching runway proceedings at West Palm Beach, Shorts 360 lined up on 14, Gulfstream lined up on 10, someone dropped the flag and the race was on, both aborted prior to the intersection.
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Old 12th Mar 2023, 10:20
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Originally Posted by punkalouver
Interesting audio.
Tower say again. Not a native speaker, but that "line up and wait" instruction is ultra rapid machine gun style. Even when repeating it several times no chance for me to understand the details?
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Old 12th Mar 2023, 17:57
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Originally Posted by spornrad
Tower say again. Not a native speaker, but that "line up and wait" instruction is ultra rapid machine gun style. Even when repeating it several times no chance for me to understand the details?
Welcome to the US. When this occurs I always ask to say again slower and it works. No-one should be guessing or asuming take off instruction.. But we're missing the readback and possible previous transmissions to make a judgement here based on this audio. . Unless the magic words 'take off" were said at some point , no-one should attempt to take off. period.
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