AA 106 @ JFK (13 Jan 23)
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Investigators detail how an American Airlines jet crossed a runway in front of a Delt
If the report is true - Its a bit naughty for the AA flight crew not to report the runway incursion and deliberately allow the voice recording to overwrite. I thought that civil aviation had got over the blame culture and was willing to admit and learn from mistakes, which is how safety is improved. At least in this chain of events, the controller was able to intervene before the last resort of the 737 crew seeing the 777 on the runway, possibly too late
Investigators detail how an American Airlines jet crossed a runway in front of a Delta plane at JFK (msn.com)
Investigators detail how an American Airlines jet crossed a runway in front of a Delta plane at JFK (msn.com)
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I must admit I do not have the courage to read the 294 pages of the crew interviews on the Docket, but reading the msn article resume , I find it noteworthy to read that 2 of the 3 crew on that aircraft apparently admitted they did not know where they were on the airport. during taxi. There might be reasons for this distraction or lack of monitoring but this needs serious addressing by the airline I would say.
Having read them, all three crew had a slightly different immediate reaction to being on the runway, but all independently seemed to think the “red glow” from the RELs didn’t illuminate until the cockpit was already over the runway.
Interesting difference in perspective between how close the AAL pilots and the ATC staff perceived the event to be, even with a bit of hindsight.
Interesting difference in perspective between how close the AAL pilots and the ATC staff perceived the event to be, even with a bit of hindsight.
Last edited by Request Orbit; 30th Jan 2024 at 17:12. Reason: BFSGrad said most of it better
I must admit I do not have the courage to read the 294 pages of the crew interviews on the Docket, but reading the msn article resume , I find it noteworthy to read that 2 of the 3 crew on that aircraft apparently admitted they did not know where they were on the airport. during taxi. There might be reasons for this distraction or lack of monitoring but this needs serious addressing by the airline I would say.
But regarding 2 of 3 pilots being somewhat out of the loop, correct. CA inexplicably reverted to original departure/taxi brief for 31L even though he acknowledged being aware of and briefing the revised 4L departure. IOW, he was driving the aircraft where he intended and believed he was cleared to go. FO was head down at a critical point (B/J/K intersection) doing admin and believed aircraft was crossing 31L as authorized when she went head up. FB was head down doing admin from mid-B until actually crossing 4L. He was also aware 4L was the intended departure runway.
Troubling inconsistency between pilot interviews and performance study regarding the runway entrance lights (REL). All pilots said that, by the time RELs illuminated, aircraft was already midpoint 4L such that they couldn’t directly see the RELs and could only see the red glow off to the side of the aircraft. Performance study states (p. 17) that RELs illuminated as the aircraft crossed the 4L hold bar. Pilots should have been able to directly see RELs #3-6 and possibly #2. Only REL #1 would have definitely been out of view.
Also wondering about exterior lighting. Appears AA was operating exterior lighting consistent with company procedures, which gives the pilot the option of when to use logo lights. Do 121 pilots turn on logo lights when crossing runways? No mention of this in the interviews. Seems a logo light (if this aircraft was so equipped) would have given the DL pilots the best opportunity to see the crossing AA. Based on interviews, the DL did not see the crossing AA until after the RTO had been initiated. IOW, the RTO was initiated based on ATC instruction instead of observing the crossing AA.
Because the incident wasn't ATC related, I had a rather quick reading through the most interesting parts of the ATC interviews and from one of the interviews I copied a few text-lines that were rather ... interesting 
about ASDE-X:
* So the ASDE and me don’t have a good relationship because it’s as far as I’m concerned, it’s totally hit or miss.
* There’s a flashing thing that’s broken, that’s been broken, which I’ve reported probably 100 times on the ASDE forms. You’ll find them with my initials on them
* I’ve seen - without getting into storytelling, I watched an entire emergency response team line up on the runway with an aircraft on final, not show up on the ASDE and the ASDE not go off. I watched five firetrucks line up on 22 Right with an aircraft while we were using 22 Right, thinking they were on Yankee and the ASDE didn’t go off and the local control had to send the aircraft around on 22 Right.
* Yes, so the MLAT will flash, and it says MLAT not working. Great. So I have reported that hundreds of times to the FAA, officially on paperwork, in writing, and I keep getting told it’s a Verizon issue. Now that means nothing to me. That’s your problem. I’m telling you that the equipment that you’re telling me I need to rely on that people don’t die, especially when we can’t see out the window
* -- doesn’t work properly. And I actually was yelled at by my manager for saying, on a relief briefing, that the ASDE is either out of service or not working properly. That was after I ran a runway sweep with a vehicle that the vehicle never showed up on the runway and the ASDE didn’t show them at all.
* So that’s the culture that goes on about the ASDE is that I’ve become more of a pain in the ass for constantly filling out this form to say that the ASDE doesn’t work where it goes downstairs and probably just goes into the garbage, because it’s a no, quote-unquote, known issue. They take it out of the logs, so it doesn’t cause FAA issues at wherever the FAA has to deal with that issue being on their log every day.
about pilots:
* No, I expect that all pilots will listen to nothing I say at all times, because that’s how they operate.
* They all switch, they do it all the time, it’s a common thing, they -- because they’re hotshots, and I’m just a, you know, a radio operator and they know everything, and they do this all the time. They switch frequencies when they’re not supposed to. They act like a bunch of amateurs all the time. Every day, all day dealing with having to say things. And let me tell you something. After COVID, it has been 10 times worse, and I’m sure that this is not a JFK issue, that this is a NAS problem. Ten times worse after COVID where you’re having to repeat simple, basic, taxiing instructions to every pilot from top to bottom, from seniors to, you know -- from Saturday pilots to international pilots and everyone in between. You’re having to say things four and five times, basic instructions to pilots.
* Because if you give them more than three things, their brain turns to mush and they forget everything, and then they say, say again, and -- or they say something wrong and you can’t work ground control, because you will be constantly talking to the same pilot three and four times. So if you don’t break it down into turn left Bravo, hold short of Kilo. Because if I gave a Bravo, Kilo, cross 31 Left, forget about it. She’d be -- you know, some of them can, obviously, some of them can't, but you can’t work that way because you’ll -- you’re just working uphill.
about ASDE-X:
* So the ASDE and me don’t have a good relationship because it’s as far as I’m concerned, it’s totally hit or miss.
* There’s a flashing thing that’s broken, that’s been broken, which I’ve reported probably 100 times on the ASDE forms. You’ll find them with my initials on them
* I’ve seen - without getting into storytelling, I watched an entire emergency response team line up on the runway with an aircraft on final, not show up on the ASDE and the ASDE not go off. I watched five firetrucks line up on 22 Right with an aircraft while we were using 22 Right, thinking they were on Yankee and the ASDE didn’t go off and the local control had to send the aircraft around on 22 Right.
* Yes, so the MLAT will flash, and it says MLAT not working. Great. So I have reported that hundreds of times to the FAA, officially on paperwork, in writing, and I keep getting told it’s a Verizon issue. Now that means nothing to me. That’s your problem. I’m telling you that the equipment that you’re telling me I need to rely on that people don’t die, especially when we can’t see out the window
* -- doesn’t work properly. And I actually was yelled at by my manager for saying, on a relief briefing, that the ASDE is either out of service or not working properly. That was after I ran a runway sweep with a vehicle that the vehicle never showed up on the runway and the ASDE didn’t show them at all.
* So that’s the culture that goes on about the ASDE is that I’ve become more of a pain in the ass for constantly filling out this form to say that the ASDE doesn’t work where it goes downstairs and probably just goes into the garbage, because it’s a no, quote-unquote, known issue. They take it out of the logs, so it doesn’t cause FAA issues at wherever the FAA has to deal with that issue being on their log every day.
about pilots:
* No, I expect that all pilots will listen to nothing I say at all times, because that’s how they operate.
* They all switch, they do it all the time, it’s a common thing, they -- because they’re hotshots, and I’m just a, you know, a radio operator and they know everything, and they do this all the time. They switch frequencies when they’re not supposed to. They act like a bunch of amateurs all the time. Every day, all day dealing with having to say things. And let me tell you something. After COVID, it has been 10 times worse, and I’m sure that this is not a JFK issue, that this is a NAS problem. Ten times worse after COVID where you’re having to repeat simple, basic, taxiing instructions to every pilot from top to bottom, from seniors to, you know -- from Saturday pilots to international pilots and everyone in between. You’re having to say things four and five times, basic instructions to pilots.
* Because if you give them more than three things, their brain turns to mush and they forget everything, and then they say, say again, and -- or they say something wrong and you can’t work ground control, because you will be constantly talking to the same pilot three and four times. So if you don’t break it down into turn left Bravo, hold short of Kilo. Because if I gave a Bravo, Kilo, cross 31 Left, forget about it. She’d be -- you know, some of them can, obviously, some of them can't, but you can’t work that way because you’ll -- you’re just working uphill.
It’s all well having a go at the flight crew but it can be a bloody difficult job especially setting priorities with the bull**** of paperwork, checklists and when they can be completed, fatigue, strange airfields and languages (I include American regional accents in that sans le Français ) without the ridiculous long duty days and jet lag.
The airlines want more and more blood out of the stone. In my day 650 flying hours left me knackered and as soon as I could afford it I took unpaid leave as a 40 year old..ok electronics have changed things and you don’t need the flying skills of 30 years ago but it is still a hands on job and airfields aren’t the easiest thing to navigate even in daylight. I’ve called for a follow me at home base for the local captain who got lost whilst I was doing the after landing checklist.
BA managed to take the wrong taxiway Twice in SA hitting a building the second time - that takes some doing.
The airlines want more and more blood out of the stone. In my day 650 flying hours left me knackered and as soon as I could afford it I took unpaid leave as a 40 year old..ok electronics have changed things and you don’t need the flying skills of 30 years ago but it is still a hands on job and airfields aren’t the easiest thing to navigate even in daylight. I’ve called for a follow me at home base for the local captain who got lost whilst I was doing the after landing checklist.
BA managed to take the wrong taxiway Twice in SA hitting a building the second time - that takes some doing.
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It’s all well having a go at the flight crew but it can be a bloody difficult job especially setting priorities with the bull**** of paperwork, checklists and when they can be completed, fatigue, strange airfields and languages (I include American regional accents in that sans le Français ) without the ridiculous long duty days and jet lag.
The airlines want more and more blood out of the stone. In my day 650 flying hours left me knackered and as soon as I could afford it I took unpaid leave as a 40 year old..ok electronics have changed things and you don’t need the flying skills of 30 years ago but it is still a hands on job and airfields aren’t the easiest thing to navigate even in daylight. I’ve called for a follow me at home base for the local captain who got lost whilst I was doing the after landing checklist.
BA managed to take the wrong taxiway Twice in SA hitting a building the second time - that takes some doing.
The airlines want more and more blood out of the stone. In my day 650 flying hours left me knackered and as soon as I could afford it I took unpaid leave as a 40 year old..ok electronics have changed things and you don’t need the flying skills of 30 years ago but it is still a hands on job and airfields aren’t the easiest thing to navigate even in daylight. I’ve called for a follow me at home base for the local captain who got lost whilst I was doing the after landing checklist.
BA managed to take the wrong taxiway Twice in SA hitting a building the second time - that takes some doing.
These concerns were, at least in part, the basis for the union challenging the process NTSB intended to follow for gathering information from the pilots (recording of interviews).
Not having worked through very much of the Docket, I don't know whether any statements from the union, about the dispute with the company about procedures being changed, or about the process for interviews, were provided to NTSB and are somewhere on the Docket. But even so, as an SLF/attorney (whose practice for many years focused on employment and labor law matters) I have to wonder what views are held inside the union and obviously not being publicized - or not publicized yet.
