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Dallas air show crash

Old 19th Nov 2022, 14:17
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp View Post
Schnowzer,
I will be willing to wager a lot of money that the P-63 wasnít rejoining on the B-17. He was concerned with his position vis-a-vis the #2 fighter (Mustang) and never saw or was aware of the B-17ís position.
Me too, I hoped that was what I described. Unaware of B17 due task focus on aircraft ahead creating perceptual difficulties. My bad if not. It is amazing how we create our perception and what the brain can miss. One of the most famous examples at ground speed zero.


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Old 19th Nov 2022, 15:18
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Why are some posters stating that the fighters and bombers were at the same altitude? I’ve performed in a few air shows with the same lineup, WWII Bombers, fighters and even the Tora Tora group. At our pre-show briefings, which all participants were required to attend, altitude separation between disparate groups of aircraft was mandatory and stressed. And, to reiterate once again, the P-63 was higher than the B-17 as witnessed by the fact that it was in a DESCENDING left turn as it struck the Bomber.
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Old 19th Nov 2022, 15:54
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp View Post
Why are some posters stating that the fighters and bombers were at the same altitude? Iíve performed in a few air shows with the same lineup, WWII Bombers, fighters and even the Tora Tora group. At our pre-show briefings, which all participants were required to attend, altitude separation between disparate groups of aircraft was mandatory and stressed. And, to reiterate once again, the P-63 was higher than the B-17 as witnessed by the fact that it was in a DESCENDING left turn as it struck the Bomber.
If the pilot was concentrating on the Mustang ahead, and making the join "picture" look right, he may well not have noticed that he was descending out of his block.
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Old 19th Nov 2022, 16:36
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Flying Scotsman,
I Agree, he was fixated on #2
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Old 19th Nov 2022, 18:06
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The preceding P-51s had also descended and were at around 400' during their pass according to ADSB. Previous passes had been at 1000' +. They then both broke right and up towards the NW end of the display line - presumably choreographed rather than any reaction to what happened behind them.

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao...=4&trackLabels
https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao...12&trackLabels
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 19:23
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My Confusion

I flew with the Texas Raiders on that B-17 in Rome, GA a couple of years ago and that really makes me want to understand the cause.

Question: Why is a double-teardrop parade that places aircraft on the photo-pass portion with other aircraft going the opposite direction even considered?
It seems to me an oval racetrack pattern is much safer since everyone would be single-file at like speeds in the oval parade and never in converging curved paths or never overtaking
another participant. The double-teardrop with climbing and descending is a flawed plan in my mind.
Bryan Cobb
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 20:29
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Originally Posted by Moush View Post
Pilot incapacitated?
Possible, but highly unlikely. The investigators will consider all the possibilities but I strongly suspect pilot incapacitation will be ruled out.
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 08:31
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As with most airshows, the full circuit is in front of the spectators, this naturally results in aircraft turning toward the spectators before flying down the line.
In this incident, at the moment if impact, the momentum of the aircraft was *toward* the crowd. The impact was so catastrophic that both aircraft plummeted. But what if the P63 had been partially damaged and then descended on its track, would it have crashed into the crowd?

Would it be inherently safer for the circuit to be conducted *around* the spectators? Not as visually engaging.....
Mjb
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 08:39
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Was a drone involved ?
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 08:55
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Black Pudding. NO is the answer. (What a question! is Doha very close to the far side of the moon, or have you simply not read this thread at all).

S
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 09:11
  #191 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by mickjoebill View Post
As with most airshows, the full circuit is in front of the spectators, this naturally results in aircraft turning toward the spectators before flying down the line.
In this incident, at the moment if impact, the momentum of the aircraft was *toward* the crowd. The impact was so catastrophic that both aircraft plummeted. But what if the P63 had been partially damaged and then descended on its track, would it have crashed into the crowd?

Would it be inherently safer for the circuit to be conducted *around* the spectators? Not as visually engaging.....
Mjb
Quite by chance I was lucky enough to attend a Planes of Fame airshow at Chino in 2000 - around the spectators was exactly how the groups of aircraft flew, such as P-51s, P-40s, P-38s, P-47s, then Navy types, etc, Worked very well, you had something in front of you most of the time. Individual aerobatic acts (Brian Sanders in Sea Fury "Argonaut", his arrival from on high was possibly the fastest I've ever seen a piston engined aircraft go, not certain that Reno races are quite as rapid out the outset, despite the downhill start!), etc filled in. Day before I'd been at the CAF's Midland display, I don't recall the tear drop race track parades as seen at Dallas, some of the flights may have been but I'm sure most stuff was going down the display line then flying the reciprocal a mile or two further out, still in front of the crowd.
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 13:43
  #192 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by mickjoebill View Post
As with most airshows, the full circuit is in front of the spectators, this naturally results in aircraft turning toward the spectators before flying down the line.
In this incident, at the moment if impact, the momentum of the aircraft was *toward* the crowd. The impact was so catastrophic that both aircraft plummeted. But what if the P63 had been partially damaged and then descended on its track, would it have crashed into the crowd?

Would it be inherently safer for the circuit to be conducted *around* the spectators? Not as visually engaging.....
Mjb
No. When aircraft are in the air nowhere is safe from the result of a mistake, mid-air or crash. Rules limit the impact of such an event but never totally remove it.
In 40 years, I have only witnessed personally one fatal accident and have never personally been threatened by anything that has happened at an air show.
In those 40 years there have been untold deaths on our roads and several near where I live.
So, what should we restrict. Air shows or driving?
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 16:51
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Originally Posted by uxb99 View Post
So, what should we restrict. Air shows or driving?
How often do you drive and how often do you attend airshows? And what is the ratio between the two for the average citizen? (The vast majority never go to an airshow in their entire life.) Nothing can be derived from this kind of statistics. Only that every fatality is one too many, both on the road and at airshows.
Personally I have seen a similar display at Duxford and must say that it was impressive. But not important enough for anybody to die for it.
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 18:48
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
How often do you drive and how often do you attend airshows? And what is the ratio between the two for the average citizen? (The vast majority never go to an airshow in their entire life.) Nothing can be derived from this kind of statistics. Only that every fatality is one too many, both on the road and at airshows.
Personally I have seen a similar display at Duxford and must say that it was impressive. But not important enough for anybody to die for it.
That goes for any sport. People die horse riding, canoeing, cycling. All we can do is ensure it's as safe as possible. You have to let the event breathe a little. Hammer it with restrictions and the event wouldn't happen.
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 19:26
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Originally Posted by uxb99 View Post
Hammer it with restrictions and the event wouldn't happen.
It would happen but differently. Personally I don't need to see 30+ warbirds being displayed at the same time. We humans are not capable of multitasking and can only watch one at a time. So why not display one after the other? That would reduce the risk of a collision to zero and we would still be able to see historic aircraft outside of museums.
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Old 24th Nov 2022, 04:32
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
It would happen but differently. Personally I don't need to see 30+ warbirds being displayed at the same time. We humans are not capable of multitasking and can only watch one at a time. So why not display one after the other? That would reduce the risk of a collision to zero and we would still be able to see historic aircraft outside of museums.

Same applies for horse racing, one on the track at a time. Also, any type of vehicle racing, one on the track at a time.
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Old 24th Nov 2022, 05:15
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
We humans are not capable of multitasking and can only watch one at a time.
If that were true, it would make playing PacMan really tough.
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Old 24th Nov 2022, 16:47
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Sorry what next but I disagree with your assertion about multitasking (and agree with Zombywoof's gentle retort). Next time you get the chance, spend a day sitting next to a controller at a busy approach facility, and then tell me you still believe "humans are not capable of multitasking".

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Old 24th Nov 2022, 17:03
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I'm typing/reading this, drinking a cuppasoup (while not typing) and listening to a comedy on TV - I'd say that's multitasking...

That said, I do prefer single type displays so one can watch and listen to one aircraft. Formations and the Flying Legends Balbo are something else.
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Old 25th Nov 2022, 03:17
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Next time you get the chance, spend a day sitting next to a controller at a busy approach facility, and then tell me you still believe "humans are not capable of multitasking".
Is a busy air traffic controller multi tasking? Or just performing one task - maintaining safe air traffic flow? I think you'd find that air traffic controllers, while on duty, are very insulated from distraction, and any multi tasking. Even sitting beside one comes with limitations for the sitter.

On the other hand, a pilot, flying an advanced fast airplane, is tasked doing that. Then that pilot is thinking about maneuvering into formation with another aircraft, another task with constantly changing parameters, and [hopefully] considering his own traffic separation - many distinct tasks - 'cause he has to look all over the ski for them, rather than at one radar display.

I entertain the notion that the Air Cobra pilot was task saturated, in a very complex situation, and could not keep all the balls in the air. I have had a few occasions in an uncontrolled airport environment where non conforming traffic was too much to mentally track, while I was also PIC, training a pilot new to the type, who was flying. I chose to overshoot a visual approach, and reorient myself with the traffic, before attempting another approach.

In my opinion, the set up of this flying display was a major Swiss cheese hole toward task saturation, and needlessly so. As said, great display antique airplanes, but not in a highly complex multi plane formation in turns. Just fly them one after another across in front of the spectators - and, then they can also enjoy the distinct sound from each one too!
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