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Unreported light aircraft accident

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Unreported light aircraft accident

Old 10th May 2023, 16:53
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
Assume? Makes an ASS of yoU and ME.
While we are at assuming: Could you enlighten us in which types you have actually tried this method? Or even better: post a video of you trying it.
Especially low wing types would be interesting.
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Old 10th May 2023, 16:57
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 421dog
Itís nobody elseís problem if a Pilot that canít control his airplane flies into a situation above his skill set. If thereís a cloud in the sky, avoid it, or know damn well how to fly through it.
While from a pure legal perspective you are right, these two controllers will have to live with the knowledge that they could have saved these two people for the rest of their lives.
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Old 10th May 2023, 18:31
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by henra
While from a pure legal perspective you are right, these two controllers will have to live with the knowledge that they could have saved these two people for the rest of their lives.
That is some serious finger pointing there. Are you implying ATC in this case, have blood on their hands? If you are, that is very unfair of you. They tried their best I'm sure, using the knowledge they were in possession of, at the time.

Now the South American cowboy, who run his wing tip along the ground, that to me is a hanging offense. Look for trouble, you very oftern find it.

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Old 10th May 2023, 18:51
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
That is some serious finger pointing there. Are you implying ATC in this case, have blood on their hands?
Not deliberately. But if you were in their shoes and reflecting the situation over a glass of whine for yourself you can't help but come to the conclusion that it was a missed chance to save two lives.
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Old 10th May 2023, 19:35
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by henra
While we are at assuming: Could you enlighten us in which types you have actually tried this method? Or even better: post a video of you trying it.
Especially low wing types would be interesting.
There is a good reason I have not been drawn into, naming types of aircraft and the stability they may or maynot possess. Suffice to say I have tried this with most light aircraft I have flown.
Every type of aircraft display different characteristics, some good some not so good. No two aircraft of the same type, display identical characteristics. No two aircraft are rigged the same. Some aircraft are twisted. Bend an aircraft, it will never be completely straight. Bend the wings, it's normally a total lose.
As for Video evidence. When I last flew a light aircraft, (medium and heavy aircraft time is irrelevant, in this case) video cameras were such, king Kong would have been pushed to lift the thing, leave alone get it into the aircraft. Proves nothing unless there is a simultaneous view of all primary controls, experiencing input or not.
All I am trying to get across is to go try it for yourselves.
Dont try and tear me to pieces until you have tried it. If you don't try it out but criticise, that is destructive criticism.
I put the question again, what would you or anyother sceptic, tell a person how to get down through cloud, who has no other option but to do so?. The aircraft engine may have quit while VMC on top, for example. If that engine cant be restarted in time, that aircraft is going down of course. If the pilot calls for help as they neither posses the knowledge how to get it down or the aircraft is not equipped for IMC, what would your or others input be?
I think this has been done to death.
I rest my case.

Last edited by RichardJones; 10th May 2023 at 20:42.
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Old 10th May 2023, 21:17
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by henra
While from a pure legal perspective you are right, these two controllers will have to live with the knowledge that they could have saved these two people for the rest of their lives.
Whilst this comment is harsh, it is not unjustified.

It is clear that other posters on this thread have not read the Accident Report (or my modest summary in Post #90).

The ATC effort was nowhere close to the best that British ATC can do. If it was, then there would be aircraft collisions and crashes all the time in the UK.

The only reason that ATC are not fully responsible for the crash is that the poor pilot (now dead) clearly contributed to his own problems.

I hope that the Health and Safety Executive investigate this crash, to see if ATC response met statutory minimum standards.

All the Accident Report's recommendations related to ATC.

All round, a very sad set of circumstances,

IB
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Old 10th May 2023, 21:25
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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I’ve refrained from posting on this thread up until now due to the calibre of the other posters. We’ve got the high hours commercial / airline pilot who can’t name the light aircraft types he’s talking about and hasn’t flown one since video cameras were too heavy to lift, and the guy who as a student with a few hours of IF training was already better at instrument flying than the high hours commercial instructor sitting next to him. Maybe I’ve got nothing to add, except that the last poster asked what would I tell a person how to get down through cloud who has no other option than to do so.

The answer is that there is always an option, and that option is don’t be there in the first place. So a few rules…

1. Learn how to flight plan. Don’t set off basing your weather briefing on out of date TAFs for airfields that aren’t open, or iPhone Apps that aren’t aviation related. Learn how to properly decode TAFS and METARs. Learn how to relate what they say to what you’re going to see. Think about what 3000 metres in mist and overcast at 500 feet on an area forecast really means when you’re trying to get to an airfield that’s 400 feet above sea level, or 200 feet above sea level. Most instructors who have flown only in the UK don’t have any experience of real Skud running so can’t teach it, and shouldn’t. The value of practice in Skud running is to teach you never to do it again.

2. If your aircraft has instruments, even if it’s just a turn and slip or turn coordinator, or a Venturi driven AH with nothing backing it up, learn to use them. Invest in a few hours with an instructor. Just because you’ve got a thousand hours in your log book and you’re the ace of the base doesn’t mean you can’t learn from an instructor with 500 hours but who has the instrument rating that you don’t have. If you can turn, descend, and fly straight and level you can fly a surveillance radar approach, and that can save you.

3. if you’re Skud running, and the cloud base is getting lower and lower never, ever, keep climbing to stay on top of cloud thinking you’ll find a hole to get down through. You probably won’t. Only climb if your aircraft is properly IFR equipped (not skydemon on an iPad), and you are qualified and current. Forget about keeping wings level feet off the rudders or spinning down through cloud. I’ve flown 5000 hours on SEP and I’m current at IF on them, and 15000 hours in multi crew jet / turboprop and I’m current in them as well, that’s not Willy waving, it’s because despite all that I would never fly IFR in an SEP with less than a thousand foot cloud base, because if the engine stops you need time when you glide out of the cloud to find a place to land, and that’s the same if you’ve got a hundred hours or a million. If I get down to 500 ft AGL below the cloud base I’d turn round and go back, and always would make sure I had somewhere to go back to. And I learned that years ago as a frightened bush pilot doing real Skud running, not reading about it on an internet forum. Always have a plan B.

4. Never be to proud to admit that the conditions are beyond you, and say to your passenger “This isn’t safe, let’s go to the pub instead”. It’s an old saying but a true one; It’s always better to be down here wishing you were up there than the other way around,
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Old 10th May 2023, 22:00
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Excrab.

At last, a sensible post with some genuine advice.

S
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Old 12th May 2023, 07:38
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by excrab
Iíve refrained from posting on this thread up until now due to the calibre of the other posters. Weíve got the high hours commercial / airline pilot who canít name the light aircraft types heís talking about and hasnít flown one since video cameras were too heavy to lift, and the guy who as a student with a few hours of IF training was already better at instrument flying than the high hours commercial instructor sitting next to him. Maybe Iíve got nothing to add, except that the last poster asked what would I tell a person how to get down through cloud who has no other option than to do so.

The answer is that there is always an option, and that option is donít be there in the first place. So a few rulesÖ

1. Learn how to flight plan. Donít set off basing your weather briefing on out of date TAFs for airfields that arenít open, or iPhone Apps that arenít aviation related. Learn how to properly decode TAFS and METARs. Learn how to relate what they say to what youíre going to see. Think about what 3000 metres in mist and overcast at 500 feet on an area forecast really means when youíre trying to get to an airfield thatís 400 feet above sea level, or 200 feet above sea level. Most instructors who have flown only in the UK donít have any experience of real Skud running so canít teach it, and shouldnít. The value of practice in Skud running is to teach you never to do it again.

2. If your aircraft has instruments, even if itís just a turn and slip or turn coordinator, or a Venturi driven AH with nothing backing it up, learn to use them. Invest in a few hours with an instructor. Just because youíve got a thousand hours in your log book and youíre the ace of the base doesnít mean you canít learn from an instructor with 500 hours but who has the instrument rating that you donít have. If you can turn, descend, and fly straight and level you can fly a surveillance radar approach, and that can save you.

3. if youíre Skud running, and the cloud base is getting lower and lower never, ever, keep climbing to stay on top of cloud thinking youíll find a hole to get down through. You probably wonít. Only climb if your aircraft is properly IFR equipped (not skydemon on an iPad), and you are qualified and current. Forget about keeping wings level feet off the rudders or spinning down through cloud. Iíve flown 5000 hours on SEP and Iím current at IF on them, and 15000 hours in multi crew jet / turboprop and Iím current in them as well, thatís not Willy waving, itís because despite all that I would never fly IFR in an SEP with less than a thousand foot cloud base, because if the engine stops you need time when you glide out of the cloud to find a place to land, and thatís the same if youíve got a hundred hours or a million. If I get down to 500 ft AGL below the cloud base Iíd turn round and go back, and always would make sure I had somewhere to go back to. And I learned that years ago as a frightened bush pilot doing real Skud running, not reading about it on an internet forum. Always have a plan B.

4. Never be to proud to admit that the conditions are beyond you, and say to your passenger ďThis isnít safe, letís go to the pub insteadĒ. Itís an old saying but a true one; Itís always better to be down here wishing you were up there than the other way around,
While your items are perfectly valid, correct, and highly recommendable, these simply aren't applicable to this discussion.

When the fire brigade scrambles to a fire, they have at that moment zero interest in a discussion about "prevention". Their interest at that moment is to put out the fire.

Your approach is, that we don't need a fire brigade when perfect prevention is applied. We all know meteorites, lightning, and a zillion other causes can create a fire, whatever prevention we have.

The same with clouds, to return to this discussion. We all know, TAF's are perfect in both timing and predicting the weather impact, as well as that (other) pilots are perfect, ATC does not make mistakes, etc, etc. Not. Reality is, every now and then, a spam-can ends up above a solid cloud layer and needs to get down, before the fuel runs out.

This whole discussion is "how can this be accomplished", without sacrificing the spam-can and its occupants.

Oh, and we already have reports in this thread, that RJ's suggestion does (somewhat) work, in specific circumstances. Which in its case is a positive indication. Not to say, extending the instruction "feet off the rudder" with "use ailerons to keep wings (more or less) level, forget about the direction you fly" might be a reasonable life-saver.

For those arguing about the amount of "clear" height, when getting out of the clouds. A 300-400 ft ceiling with a commercial airplane (flying at some 150+ kts) on raw data, without CAT-X approach, is an intense happening.

Doing the same in a 65 kts spam-can is a much easier operation. Because the spam-can airspeed is only 40% of the commercial airplanes' speed, the rate of descent at the same glide path is also 40% less, which gives you 2.5 times more time to react, when getting out of the clouds. In a spam-can, your real worry needs to be the obstacle clearance, not the time you have to react, once out of the clouds. Been there, navigating on an NDB, in IMC, at night, with a 400 ft ceiling. The IMC part is not easy, though doable, and the whole operation is not even "on the edge", a spam-can flies that slow, there is no issue picking up on the VMC appearance and correcting for course/position, even when way out of position towards the runway.

Originally Posted by excrab
..... and the guy who as a student with a few hours of IF training was already better at instrument flying than the high hours commercial instructor sitting next to him.......
Assuming you refer to my writing:

WideScreen about IMC

Your summary is pretty distorted. I did write: "That instructor did nothing, apart from looking out of his side window", I don't state, nor would dare to do, his IMC skills would be inferior to mine. Despite that, it's remarkable, that during the debriefing there was not a word about the happening......

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Old 12th May 2023, 19:00
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A perfect example of why things go haywire is when people start to "teach" that the person in a bad situation should have done better preparation (or just omitted the action).



This accident would never have happened, if the pedantic guy would have kept his mouth shut.
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Old 13th May 2023, 05:12
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Best example of why PPLs should stay VMC. This driver thought they could get to where they wanted to go by driving into a closed road (unintentional VFR into IFR?). When the worker told the driver to move they didn't. Apparently because once you open the door in "drive" the parking brake will set. System knowledge. Hard to keep your mind together when you panic...I think excrab is right. Most accidents aren't unexpected catastrophic failures. Teaching people to stay out of those places will always be better than teaching people to escape from there. There is a reason spin training isn't part of the US PPL anymore. Yes, if you know how to spin through clouds and recover after you come out and find a place to land in those few seconds.............. But if you keep people afraid enough of clouds, GA will be safer.

Last edited by hans brinker; 13th May 2023 at 05:32.
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Old 13th May 2023, 06:32
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Originally Posted by hans brinker
Best example of why PPLs should stay VMC. This driver thought they could get to where they wanted to go by driving into a closed road (unintentional VFR into IFR?). When the worker told the driver to move they didn't. Apparently because once you open the door in "drive" the parking brake will set. System knowledge. Hard to keep your mind together when you panic...I think excrab is right. Most accidents aren't unexpected catastrophic failures. Teaching people to stay out of those places will always be better than teaching people to escape from there. There is a reason spin training isn't part of the US PPL anymore. Yes, if you know how to spin through clouds and recover after you come out and find a place to land in those few seconds.............. But if you keep people afraid enough of clouds, GA will be safer.
Of course, people should stay away from unsafe situations.

The reality is, this does not happen (always).

The YT video clearly shows what happens when the pedantic start becoming pedantic about "prevention" at the wrong time/place.

The same for spam-cans ending up inadvertently in IMC or above a solid cloud layer, without sufficient fuel to fly somewhere safe. It just happens, every now and then.

For this, discussion about potential solutions is highly valuable, to avoid somebody does choose a seemingly plausible solution, which isn't working at all. Discussing such potential solutions is completely different from promoting the acceptability of ending up in such a dangerous situation. Having a toolbox available, just in case something goes haywire, is just as good prevention as proper flight preparation. Both !

Such a preparation/discussion is something completely different from a YT-er intentionally crashing his airplane to earn more money through advertising.
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Old 13th May 2023, 08:17
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Thread running here which has examples of folk finding themselves VMC on top.

VFR into IMC. What did you do?

As in the VMC into IMC accidents the only remedy is don't attempt it, VMC on top like wise.

Unless you are current with the IMC skills.necessary to get you out of a jam (plan B which you should always have in the back pocket).

Don't rely on weather reports, read them with a jaundiced eye, they are horoscopes with numbers. Example, airline A320 inbound to an airport the TAF of which said CAVOK, a few minutes prior to arrival unforecast fog rolled over the airport, no fuel to mess about, made an autoland for which the crew had no training using an ILS that didn't have approval for autolands.

Should you be facing an emergency tell ATC what you want, you are the person in command, ATC is there to provide help, they don't know what experience or skill levels you have, don't let them lead you by the nose. The poor chap in this accident was backed into a corner and apparently stressed right out, which is understandable on one level. As PIC should have asked for nearest VMC airport and stated fuel state/endurance, when given IMC should have said unable. All that aside, some days.................
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Old 13th May 2023, 08:56
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Originally Posted by WideScreen
Such a preparation/discussion is something completely different from a YT-er intentionally crashing his airplane to earn more money through advertising.
Fascinating thread; completely agree prevention is the best medicine but knowing how long your particular machine remains stable hands-off is interesting to consider.

Rather ironically, Trevor Jacob's Taylorcraft appeared to descend in a reasonably stable attitude sans pilot!

However, having experienced a 'sensory deprived spinning chair device', I was shocked at how powerful the somatogyral illusions were, so my feeling is that even in the most stable of machines in a gentle turn, it would be incredibly difficult not to make a reactionary input! Especially when considering the likely stress levels of a VFR only pilot in such circumstances...


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Old 15th May 2023, 12:40
  #115 (permalink)  
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Excrab

Excellent advice.

I think this tragic accident is a classic case of the holes in the cheese lining up. Sadly the pilot put himself into the situation where he appeared to be well outside his level of competence and paid the ultimate price. As others have said the ATC services failed to comprehend the true nature of his problem. I’ve been to visit the D&D cell and they normally offer excellent support. I’ve no doubt that both Exeter and the D&D cell learned valuable lessons to help prevent a recurrence.

In my youth a wise old instructor defined a superior pilot as one that uses their superior abilities to stay out of situations where their superior ability will be called on! Of course we’d probably use the phrase “Threat Error Management” nowadays. So using the concept of TEM then brief students and inexperienced pilots don’t fly in IMC unless trained, current and in a suitably equipped aircraft. A forced landing with power is preferable to losing control in cloud. If a pilot for whatever reason ends up VMC in top the get use local ATC or call up on 121.5. I don’t know if it’s used in the GA environment but the abbreviation NITS works well when briefing ATC as it is to brief cabin crew in abnormal situations.

Nature, Intention, Time, Specials

In the context of this accident the point is that the pilot that cannot fly in cloud must tell ATC. Anyway, just my thoughts. Good discussion items for PPL navigation etc.
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Old 15th May 2023, 17:44
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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In the context of this accident the point is that the pilot that cannot fly in cloud must tell ATC. Anyway, just my thoughts. Good discussion items for PPL navigation etc.
Agree with you there. Call for help!!
Reminds me of the DC 10 that had the Hydraulic failure, leading to what amounted to primary aerodynamic control loss.. One crew member called up the engineering department pronto, for technical input.
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