Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Lucky Caravans!

Old 22nd Sep 2019, 13:52
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The Cooler King
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Lucky Caravans!

They almost became an A380.
Just one hole left to line up.
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Old 24th Sep 2019, 18:22
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I see they are Sibson Radio.
I think it's time under some circumstances for pilots to report base leg.
I see these confusions where i work and traffic wants to join final, even with AFIS they won't tell other pilots that an aircraft is on base leg, even when they can see it.
I see where i work that final traffic tries to push ahead of circuit base traffic. Then ensues a conversation by the final traffic asking where the other traffic is, only to be told it reported downwind, when air traffic can see it's on base leg.
Another accident waiting to happen, probably with a student, unaware of what's going on.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 02:34
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If I’m the traffic that is on base, I get very chatty in such situations, there’s no rules saying you can’t add your own extra positional reports and it helps everyone’s awareness.

Something I picked up flying at DX which can be very busy with vastly different aircraft types (where else can you find a Tiger Moth, Spitfire and PA28 sharing a circuit) everybody kind of communicates positions by telling the FISO, remember everyone can hear when you tell the tower.

If the tower is shut, my calls to “traffic” will be more often than usual on my approach to the field.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 06:11
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Originally Posted by kghjfg
...remember everyone can hear when you tell the tower.
You think?
Closest I ever came to a midair was joining downwind with full ATC. The pilot of a following a/c did not see me, later told me he thought I had landed despite my inbound calls and that he could not have heard me being given a landing clearance let alone any other position calls round the circuit as they had not yet been made.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 07:24
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Nearly happened at ZRH with two DC9s flying cloud break ils14 left hand circling 28.
lead aircraft had a mate in the rhs who suddenly lost daylight through his eyebrow window..belly of number two. All well below 500ft on short final.
Number 2 was being flown by a swede whose abilities didnt match his ego.
Tower had a trainee.
Mate grabbed stick and stuffed it forward.
Supervisor made some sort of panic call SRxxx confirm number 2..who went around.
saved a couple hundred lives and a big whole in Kloten.
Later flew with Swede on DC10 and threatened to refuse to fly with him again.
lucky to survive his career.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 08:26
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The nearest I have come to this type of incident was at Bembridge in the good old days when they were operated by a Britten Norman FISO. I was just coming up to joining crosswind when someone over Portsmouth asked the FISO how many aircraft were in the circuit. As I could account for the number he gave, which I assumed included me, I rather stupidly relaxed my usual vigilance on base leg and turned final. The FISO then asked someone else, which turned out to be an Islander, if he could see the aircraft in front of him. In a rather alarmed voice he said that he "could now", and he then nobly, calmly and conveniently said that he would land on the grass. He did and nothing more was said.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 08:48
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Pilots in the circuit often don't hear transmissions which are not prefixed with their call sign. Hearing is the first thing to go when you are busy.
Instructors who talk too much don't help.
Reading the Airprox board report is just like a normal day at an uncontrolled airfield.
Important transmissions being stepped on.
Incorrect RTF.
Not understanding the level of service.
Not understanding the meaning of long final.
Forgetting calls.
Long periods of carrier wave only with background noise.
Interrupting when another caller is expecting an answer.
I feel better now with that off my chest.😅
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 09:34
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Beware this was not an average airprox. This is a frequent problem related to skydiver's dropping operations, where the skydiver's airplane typically dives to the airfield like a Stuka dive bomber, near Vne, approaching the circuit or directly the final with a higher-than-usual descent angle, often fast, hot, with a pilot under severe time pressure to the extent that radio cals are not listened to. You can repeat your own position as many times as you like, a falling rock from above won't listen to you. Extremely dangerous practices are developed by some people, just to cut a 0.1 on the engine tachometer and save $$$. I really wonder what are the rules of parachute dropping operations vs. commercial air transport. Any safety responsible person that will go to jail in case of a midair? Or it will be blamed on the pilot (as usual) and then let's move on and forget?

The report said the use of one of the Cessnas for parachutist drops had the potential to put pressure on pilots for a "quick turnaround" and called for "sufficient flexibility within the parachute dropping schedule".
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 11:22
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approaching the circuit or directly the final with a higher-than-usual descent angle, often fast, hot, with a pilot under severe time pressure
The jump pilot can dive the plane as they wish outside the circuit, but as any airplane, once approaching to join the circuit must conform to a "normal" circuit, and purposefully take the time to relieve themselves of pressure before landing. Pilots succumbing to "severe time pressure" as approaching to land make errors and omissions. Errors and omissions cause accidents, A friend of mine died from one last month.

Pilots, you are responsible for the safe flying of the aircraft. Thus, you are responsible for asserting yourself enough that you assure that time pressures are not tolerated. If it takes an extra point one one this flight, it probably won't on the next. If it takes the extra point one on that flight too, it's probably the time required to actually fly the flight safely - so take it! Some jump school operators will allow their bar to be set as low as the least cautious pilot will set a standard. I flew two seasons of jumpers, and gave up when the operator and I could not come to agreement on some safety elements. I was replaced with a time builder with on tenth my flying experience. As I could not convince the operation to enable more safety, I hope he found a way!
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 06:07
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Originally Posted by Pilot DAR
I hope he found a way!
I hope too, but some certainly don't. Another time-builder here. Initial thoughts are that the airplane oversped and got damaged in the initial high speed dive:
It is such a recurring type of security risk, I am surprised there is no stronger legislation around that.

Edit: time-building is a safety risk of its own. Not the lower level of experience, though. That can be compensated by stronger adherence to rules and common sense. But time-builders are repetitively coaxed into operations bordering on safety limits and beyond, not only in parachute drops, but sightseeing flights, ferry flights also. They are desperate, easy to pressure and eventually expandable. While a lot of valid criticism can be lashed at them, I also think these young people need more protection from the pressures of unsafe operations.

Last edited by rnzoli; 26th Sep 2019 at 06:27. Reason: timebulding comment added
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