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AA A321 takes off after smashing ground sign

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AA A321 takes off after smashing ground sign

Old 19th Apr 2019, 22:38
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"I was aboard this aircraft. The take off was fast, rather quick and felt short. Then we pitched down and banked right (left wing up) and then left (right wing up) and the back felt to skid out sideways, I was in the window seat just behind the left wing. Then it felt like the pilot pulled the aircraft up manually. He continued to make very strong left and right banks while in the air before we circled back to JFK.
Sounds like a wake encounter.
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Old 20th Apr 2019, 14:10
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Originally Posted by Smythe View Post
Sounds like a wake encounter.
Wake encounter in such crosswind?! Sounds like pisspoor piloting skills to me.
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Old 20th Apr 2019, 17:37
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
It will be interesting to see if the NTSB agrees with Avherald's (unattributed) report that "the ground tracks even suggest the aircraft came close to ground loop".
I would think that some marks would exist if true and haven't seen anything 'leaked' yet. Pics of wing damage are available.
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Old 20th Apr 2019, 19:38
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Originally Posted by booze View Post
Wake encounter in such crosswind?! Sounds like pisspoor piloting skills to me.
SLF here. Just wondering if perhaps a wake from an aircraft departing 31R could have propagated downwind to 31L given the breeze. I've hit by more than a few wakes while sailing close to the runways in BOS, they do seem to sink fairly efficiently.
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Old 21st Apr 2019, 11:17
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Originally Posted by thundersnow9 View Post
SLF here. Just wondering if perhaps a wake from an aircraft departing 31R could have propagated downwind to 31L given the breeze. I've hit by more than a few wakes while sailing close to the runways in BOS, they do seem to sink fairly efficiently.
​​​The two parallel runways mentioned are just too far from eachother with lots of obstacles, like terminal buildings, etc. in between.
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Old 21st Apr 2019, 19:01
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I hope AA isn't again training in aggressive use of rudder pedals in turbulence as before the AA 587 crash.
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Old 21st Apr 2019, 23:01
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Wake encounter in such crosswind?! Sounds like pisspoor piloting skills to me.
Sorry, I dont see the crosswind details anywhere.

Would also have to see where at this airport the crosswinds are measured.
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Old 21st Apr 2019, 23:06
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The problem seems to be establishing just what the manufacturer stipulates, and how strictly that's interpreted as SOP.

A pal of mine had a friendly chat with a boss about holding the side-stick back slightly during the deceleration run. Such a small issue; a hangover from the old days. So what of crossing the controls on take off? If allowed at all, I'm sure it wouldn't be great handfuls of stick and rudder like the DC3 days.

There was a discussion a year or so back about crossing up upon landing. I was pleasantly surprised at a few more experienced posters being very for this technique. This was after a near wing-tip scraping landing with a major thump when the starboard wheels came down.
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Old 22nd Apr 2019, 00:02
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Wake encounters are pretty obvious and distinctive on a DFDR review.
Not suggesting it was (or wasn't) a wake encounter, but they should readily be able to tell fairly quickly.
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Old 22nd Apr 2019, 00:53
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Handling skills are now tertiary to what managers are looking for in a newly-hired pilot. There is a presumption - by HR types - that pilots should first be customer service agents, then pilots. Flying can be trained after the fact. Thatís their opinion. Anything goes to be the most PC company now.
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Old 22nd Apr 2019, 01:09
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Originally Posted by Smythe View Post
Sorry, I dont see the crosswind details anywhere.

Would also have to see where at this airport the crosswinds are measured.
KJFK 110051Z 36017KT 10SM SCT250 10/M03 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP153 T01001028=
KJFK 102351Z 33015KT 10SM FEW070 FEW250 11/M03 A2996 RMK AO2 PK WND 34026/2257 SLP145 T01111028 10161 20111 53034=
TWR wind was 010/17 prior takeoff roll.
Anemometers are placed along all RWYs, although I'm not sure about their spacing or number.
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Old 22nd Apr 2019, 03:28
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Just Imagine

Just imagine the comments if this had happened to a 3rd world carrier..... Just Saying!
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Old 22nd Apr 2019, 03:46
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Originally Posted by Longtimer View Post
Just imagine the comments if this had happened to a 3rd world carrier..... Just Saying!
https://aviation-safety.net/airlines...eport-2017.pdf

pg 47:
Regional Accident Rate (2013-2017) Accidents per Million Sectors
North America, north Asia, and EU around 1.
Asia/pacific, Latin america, Middle east 2-3
Africa/Russia 4-6
Just Saying!


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Old 22nd Apr 2019, 03:50
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33015KT
Wind direction 330 at 15 kts, peak 23, runway direction 313.9...

crosswind? 5kts?

Last edited by Smythe; 22nd Apr 2019 at 04:05.
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Old 22nd Apr 2019, 03:54
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Originally Posted by thundersnow9 View Post
SLF here. Just wondering if perhaps a wake from an aircraft departing 31R could have propagated downwind to 31L given the breeze. I've hit by more than a few wakes while sailing close to the runways in BOS, they do seem to sink fairly efficiently.
Not a player in this case:

JFK 03/759 JFK RWY 13L/31R CLSD 1904010300-1911162200
This NOTAM in secret coded format says that runway 31R was closed when the mishap occurred.

The aircraft taking off on 31L prior to American 300 was Envoy 4077, an EMB-135, about two minutes earlier. Just before AA300 started to roll (in more than one sense) Avianca 244 was landing on 4R and Delta 408 was taking off on 4L, both A330-200's:


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Old 22nd Apr 2019, 06:21
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Well, I dont think an ERJ caused a wake...nor a mild crosswind...
dragging a wing for a bit and taking out a sign....damn.

!JFK 03/760 JFK RWY 13L/31R WIP CONST LGTD AND BARRICADED 1904010300-1911162200
CREATED: 29 Mar 2019 21:44:00
SOURCE: JFK

!JFK 03/759 JFK RWY 13L/31R CLSD 1904010300-1911162200
CREATED: 29 Mar 2019 21:43:00
SOURCE: JFK

Finished work early? NOTAMS for closure, not for open!
So many crane obstruction NOTAMS hanging out there...

https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/notamRetrievalByICAOAction.do?method=displayByICAOs&reportTy pe=RAW&formatType=ICAO&retrieveLocId=KJFK&actionType=notamRe trievalByICAOs

Last edited by Smythe; 22nd Apr 2019 at 06:41.
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Old 22nd Apr 2019, 06:39
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Wingtip Scuffed In Takeoff Mishap - AVweb flash Article

Another...
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Old 22nd Apr 2019, 10:35
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Originally Posted by Smythe View Post
33015KT
Wind direction 330 at 15 kts, peak 23, runway direction 313.9...

crosswind? 5kts?
Reported TWR wind was 010/17. Anyhow even 5 kts of crosswind is enough to highly reduce the effect of wake caused by the preceding aircraft, if any.
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Old 22nd Apr 2019, 13:10
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Originally Posted by booze View Post
Reported TWR wind was 010/17. Anyhow even 5 kts of crosswind is enough to highly reduce the effect of wake caused by the preceding aircraft, if any.
Actually, a light crosswind can actually make it worse. Wingtip vortices move slowly outward away from the departure runway. A light crosswind can effectively hold the upwind vortex on the runway. Not saying that's the case here, but it's something to consider when judging your separation needs.
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Old 22nd Apr 2019, 14:19
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Originally Posted by 737 Driver View Post
Actually, a light crosswind can actually make it worse. Wingtip vortices move slowly outward away from the departure runway. A light crosswind can effectively hold the upwind vortex on the runway. Not saying that's the case here, but it's something to consider when judging your separation needs.
https://www.faa.gov/training_testing...ake/04SEC2.PDF


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