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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 14th Apr 2019, 10:18
  #1821 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sapperkenno View Post

S​​​NIP
​​​​Evidently our hero Mr Ibbotson seems to have struggled on this occasion, but that's not the point I'm making.
SNIP
There are few people I would trust with say flying a family member across the UK in something like a PA28, and would be more inclined to have an experienced PPL whos been at it years take them, than some idiot who trained in Poland/Sweden on the cheap with all the bells and whistles and ticks in boxes who can't fly for toffee.
Not sure of what point you're making, Ibbotson N264DBs pilot on this flight never had a CPL or even an instrument rating. He meets your family member chauffeur 'safer' criteria of being a several thousand hour PPL though. So from your posting above a PPL pilot who flies under conditions they're not trained or qualified for, is safer to fly your family than a low time CPL holder trained from early hours to adhere to SOP's, weather, ATC airspace requirements etc etc.
We see relatively few accidents where the main causal factors are professional commercially qualified low hours aircrew making poor choices. However when you look at 'high' houred PPL accidents where poor decision making has been a significant factor in the event, theres more than enough examples, the one involving N264DB comes to mind.
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Old 14th Apr 2019, 11:04
  #1822 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jumpseater View Post
Not sure of what point you're making, Ibbotson N264DBs pilot on this flight never had a CPL or even an instrument rating. He meets your family member chauffeur 'safer' criteria of being a several thousand hour PPL though. So from your posting above a PPL pilot who flies under conditions they're not trained or qualified for, is safer to fly your family than a low time CPL holder trained from early hours to adhere to SOP's, weather, ATC airspace requirements etc etc.
I didnít mention anything to do with poor flying conditions or flying outside their licence privileges. Merely, in the case of ferry flying, paradropping, aerial survey etc there are probably much more capable PPLs for the job than CPLs. Not in every case, but my point is that a CPL isnít the be all and end all of piloting skills for certain roles - putting aside the legal aspects.
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Old 14th Apr 2019, 15:35
  #1823 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post
I have found all the info I was looking for on Dave Henderson and he is without doubt a very experienced long distance ferry pilot.

He has flown from the UK to Japan and similar ferryís and there must be some sort of error on the FAA database which is why I could not find him.

I have no doubt that if he had flown Sala that night the tragedy would not have occurred.
​​
Care to share ?
Thanks
David
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Old 14th Apr 2019, 16:01
  #1824 (permalink)  
 
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and there must be some sort of error on the FAA database which is why I could not find him.
That's quite an assumption. We should not dismiss other possibilities that are open to conjecture until facts are known.
In this grubby business nothing would surprise me.
Why has Henderson disappeared from view? It seem it's more than he's just choosing not to say owt, rather he's gone to ground. Why?
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Old 14th Apr 2019, 16:17
  #1825 (permalink)  
 
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Why has Henderson disappeared from view? It seem it's more than he's just choosing not to say owt, rather he's gone to ground. Why?
I have no specific knowledge of this case, but would imagine that he has taken legal advice and, whether or not he has done anything wrong, line one of that advice would almost certainly have been that he should say nothing in public.
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Old 14th Apr 2019, 19:54
  #1826 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sapperkenno View Post

I didnít mention anything to do with poor flying conditions or flying outside their licence privileges. Merely, in the case of ferry flying, paradropping, aerial survey etc there are probably much more capable PPLs for the job than CPLs. Not in every case, but my point is that a CPL isnít the be all and end all of piloting skills for certain roles - putting aside the legal aspects.
Capability or shall we say pure ability is not everything. CPL training helps people form better decision making processes. Generally its PPLs who think they are superior that think a CPL is not needed to do Commercial flying tasks and are usually the same people who will complain that the exams and the training are too much hard work/overkill/waste of time etc.......

Last edited by S-Works; 15th Apr 2019 at 21:21.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 11:33
  #1827 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by S-Works View Post


Capability or shall we say pure ability is not everything. CPL training helps people form better decision making processes. Generally its PPLs who think they are superior that think a CPL is not needed to do Commercial flying tasks and are usually the same people who will complain that the exams and the training are too much hard work/overkill/waste of time etc.......
And quite a few of said CPLs are quite willing to fly Dodgy charters too. Decision making isn't limited just to PPLs either.
I would suggest that ones career and training, whether it be in Aviation or not steers us into good and not so good decisions.

Making a PPL/CPL a director of a company involved in renting Aircraft, so that he can rent on shared costs, then get profits from the Company is also legal. So PPL rents aircraft from Company at £350 an hour. Cost shares and pays £10 an hour towards flying with the passengers on a shared basis. Flies 2 hrs. £700 to Company. Pilot as director gets £220, £200 profit for a PPL.

Is this more or less correct?
If so, is it it "right"
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 16:28
  #1828 (permalink)  
 
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Nope, none of it is right. The FAA "common purpose" rules are the way to go and banning outfits like Wingly as well.

I understand now that they have now identified the real owner of the aircraft which is going to damn one individual.......
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 18:13
  #1829 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by S-Works View Post
Nope, none of it is right. The FAA "common purpose" rules are the way to go and banning outfits like Wingly as well.

I understand now that they have now identified the real owner of the aircraft which is going to damn one individual.......
Is it legal and how many are doing it?
I agree It's not right, but if the CAA make an AOC so bloody difficult and expensive, what do we expect?
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 19:08
  #1830 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ak7274 View Post
Is it legal and how many are doing it?
I agree It's not right, but if the CAA make an AOC so bloody difficult and expensive, what do we expect?
On the understanding that the second question is not rhetorical, I would offer the following comment.
If something is not affordable and it would involve breaking the law to obtain it then one must not obtain it. Take for example being offered one of these latest highly sought after mobile phones. If you are offered one at your regular watering hole really cheap and it turns out to have been knocked-off, could you be accused of being a receiver. Perhaps not the same thing will apply to flying services, but for sure you would know that it is cheap and any sense and reason should raise some doubts in your mind whether it is dodgy or not. If you are offered cheap fags, will you not suspect that they may have been smuggled.
Turning onto the matter of AOC`s being difficult and expensive to obtain, does that not show that it is for the sake of safety that it is. Should these legit operators who provide such services cut corners,cheat, fiddle, employ PPL`s, not carry out maintenance, fit bogus parts and do anything and everything to reduce costs to such levels so as to compete with rogues and put them out of their illegal businesses once and for all.
So, no I don`t go along that the root cause for unlawful acts is cost. That the blame may be laid on prohibitive cost of goods and services. If that would be sufficient to say excuse a thief, a cheat, a fraudster, then we might as well throw away all our law books and close all our prisons and turn them into housing of which we are in such short supply.

Some say laws are made to be broken and some do subscribe to that. But those who make a lifetime habit of it invariably do come a cropper sooner or later. Unfortunately in some cases their habit does have an impact on some unfortunates who have innocently been involved in their habits of dodging and diving.

As far as I can understand the whole mess, my conclusion is that it seems the regulatory authorities limited resources have so far been more focused on those who operate legitimate businesses and not enough on the unregulated sectors. I can only hope that this tragic event will be the catalyst for future change.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 23:04
  #1831 (permalink)  
 
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Some say laws are made to be broken and some do subscribe to that.
Bear in mind that no one but a person with dishonest/criminal mind could ever say that...
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 15:24
  #1832 (permalink)  
 
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Laws are meant to be changed where they are wrong, not broken.....
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 20:02
  #1833 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo View Post
Bear in mind that no one but a person with dishonest/criminal mind could ever say that...
That is absolutely correct and is precisely why it has been cited.
The other reason why I have used it is within the context of "risk", which has been a feature of some of the discussion on this particular issue.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 20:10
  #1834 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by S-Works View Post
Laws are meant to be changed where they are wrong, not broken.....

Not a matter of changing the law, but flaunting it. And when that is evinced enforcing it firmly and with all its power and weight upon the offender.


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Old 21st Apr 2019, 20:06
  #1835 (permalink)  
 
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I hear from a reliable source the ill fated aircraft was used on a regular basis flying jockeys to racecourses.
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Old 23rd Apr 2019, 20:46
  #1836 (permalink)  
 
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BBC Wales running this update.

Cardiff City will insist that agents and intermediaries book only commercial flights when handling player transfers after the death of Emiliano Sala.

Sala, 28, died when the plane carrying him from Nantes to Cardiff crashed late on 21 January, and the legality of the flight has been questioned.

The club said it would be calling on football's governing bodies and other clubs to follow suit.

The aviation trade body believes illegal flights are common in the UK.

Air accident investigators are still looking into why the Piper Malibu plane carrying Sala to Cardiff for his first training session crashed into the English Channel.

The light aircraft was piloted by David Ibbotson, from Crowle, North Lincolnshire, whose body has not been found.

The legality of Sala's flight has not yet been established, but a preliminary report from air accident investigators in February said the pilot was not licensed to carry fee-paying passengers and the plane was not registered for commercial flights.

Cardiff City said it "wholeheartedly" backs the Air Charter Association's (BACA) calls "to secure a review of illegal flights".

The organisation argued the crash "must be a watershed moment", and called for better enforcement and heavier punishments for pilots and individuals who undertake illegal flights.

"We have long argued that illegal flights are harming the legal air charter industry and putting lives of the travelling public at risk," said BACA chief executive Dave Edwards.

Cardiff and Penarth MP Stephen Doughty supports the calls, adding: "We need to make sure this is never allowed to happen again."


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48031453
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Old 23rd Apr 2019, 22:37
  #1837 (permalink)  
 
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Would you class a private jet (either Turbofan or Turbo prop) as a 'commercial flight' if its fully licensed, run under the terms of an AOC and flown by fully qualified, type rated and adequately experienced ATPLS?
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Old 24th Apr 2019, 18:42
  #1838 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Edward Teach View Post
Would you class a private jet (either Turbofan or Turbo prop) as a 'commercial flight' if its fully licensed, run under the terms of an AOC and flown by fully qualified, type rated and adequately experienced ATPLS?
You may find the CAA Summary at the following link helpful in dealing with this question

:SUMMARY OF THE MEANING OF COMMERCIAL AIR TRANSPORT, PUBLIC TRANSPORT & AERIAL WORK


https://webarchive.nationalarchives....009May2010.pdf
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Old 26th Apr 2019, 12:40
  #1839 (permalink)  
 
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I heard very tragic news just now on BBC Radio 4 of the sudden death of Sala's father from a heart attack at age 58.

Having lost a relative (my father) much too young at age 64 to a sudden heart attack when he was still in the midst of everything I can only begin to imagine the mental and emotional torment Mr Sala senior has been going through and while he may have had an underlying heart problem I highly doubt his death would have occurred this early in life without the appalling devastation of their place in the world and their financial situation that their son's tragic and wholly unnecessary death will have caused.

If Mr Ibbotson could be called to account he surely has an awful lot to answer for, although as unlike the pilot in the Shoreham crash or the pilot flying the Tiger Moth in which my late Uncle was killed in 1958 (in his early 20s) he did not survive while everyone else died he is at least saved from that ordeal.

I wonder if the Sala family will possibly now consider suing either of the two football clubs regarding the circumstances of their son's death or if there is watertight proof that Mr Sala acted completely on his own and without their knowledge in making these travel arrangements.
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Old 26th Apr 2019, 15:39
  #1840 (permalink)  
 
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Blimey this is still running. Who's Henderson?
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