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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 14th Mar 2019, 12:08
  #1721 (permalink)  
 
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Reading the report below ,in the Grimsby Evening Telegraph, clearly there was an incentive for Ibbotson to take the job. With his credit card issues it is fair to assume he was not picking up the tab.

I suspect he spent too much time flying and not enough on the day job.

The private pilot who died with Emiliano Sala when his plane went down in the English Channel was ordered by a court to settle a £4,413 bill just days before he was hired to fly the Cardiff City star, it can be revealed.

David Ibbotson, 59, from Crowle near Scunthorpe, had already been told to pay off £23,000 worth of debt before he was made the subject of a fifth court order for the additional bill on January 11 - 10 days before the tragedy.

It had already been established that Mr Ibbotson faced £23,000 worth of debt repayment orders to companies including Orange, Yorkshire Water, Barclaycard and Bank of Scotland.

The revelation comes amid an investigation into how Mr Ibbotson, who had dropped out of commercial flight training, was hired to make the doomed flight. Private pilots are banned from taking payment for commercial flights
https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/n...-order-2641984

Last edited by Mike Flynn; 14th Mar 2019 at 12:39.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 15:40
  #1722 (permalink)  
 
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The pilot of the accident aircraft had a fair few hours, unfortunately just not of the type of hours required for the flight he elected to take that night.
He may have had hours but he was totally unqualified and unlicensed to carry out that flight. If you go back a couple of pages and look at the picture of his licence he was a PPL limited to day only flight.

He knowingly broke the rules and was responsible for not only his own death but that of an otherwise innocent passenger who had been ignorant of detailed arrangements. No amount of 'nod and a wink- it goes on all the time' will change those facts - unpalatable though they may be.

Ibbotson should never have 'elected' to take that flight.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 20:43
  #1723 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Red Plum View Post

Ibbotson should never have 'elected' to take that flight.
Yes of course, who could reasonably argue with that.

The question that really matters is, why did he.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 06:40
  #1724 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Red Plum View Post
He may have had hours but he was totally unqualified and unlicensed to carry out that flight. If you go back a couple of pages and look at the picture of his licence he was a PPL limited to day only flight.

He knowingly broke the rules and was responsible for not only his own death but that of an otherwise innocent passenger who had been ignorant of detailed arrangements. No amount of 'nod and a wink- it goes on all the time' will change those facts - unpalatable though they may be.

Ibbotson should never have 'elected' to take that flight.

And of course knowing his financial predicament Henderson knew he would not decline.

When he handed the aircraft keys to Ibbotson that weekend it must have crossed his mind that he was encouraging and assisting Ibbotson to break the law.

The agent has explained he assigned Henderson to carry out the charter.

The lawyers will be beating a path to his door and given the sums involved this is going to be expensive.

Looking at the wider picture ,we have as others pointed out earlier, the issue of jockey flights and other grey area charters.

AOPA should be making a big fuss about this in the press to highlight how cowboy operations are undermining the genuine AOC companies.


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Old 15th Mar 2019, 20:33
  #1725 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sycamore View Post
Fairly obvious,#1721,
If that is in response to:

"The question that really matters is, why did he. "

It would suggest money motive. But others have suggested his financial plight might have been brought about by his bug for flying.
Could the answer not be, the opportunity to fly was simply irresistible. That which is so common to many affected by the bug, he just jumped to grab any opportunity to fly. And that affliction is sadly, the ailment that divides, those who do it to earn a living and those who do it for personal reasons. It is such a shame that he failed to cross that divide. He would then have had the opportunity to discover what the job really entailed.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 23:50
  #1726 (permalink)  
 
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With his experience you jump at the chance of almost any free GA flying or right seat on a commercial flight to gather experience. But not as PIC on your Jack Jones on a night IFR flight in a semi capable aircraft with some poor unsuspecting soul sitting in the back. That’s basically manslaughter.
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 11:38
  #1727 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post



And of course knowing his financial predicament Henderson knew he would not decline.

When he handed the aircraft keys to Ibbotson that weekend it must have crossed his mind that he was encouraging and assisting Ibbotson to break the law.

The agent has explained he assigned Henderson to carry out the charter.

The lawyers will be beating a path to his door and given the sums involved this is going to be expensive.

Looking at the wider picture ,we have as others pointed out earlier, the issue of jockey flights and other grey area charters.

AOPA should be making a big fuss about this in the press to highlight how cowboy operations are undermining the genuine AOC companies.


Can we stop perpetuating the concept of ‘grey area’ charters.
The concern is with illegal flights.
Be it to take bird watchers to Scotland or a footballer to Cardiff.
The 3 1/2-year sentence for Robert Murgatroyd is encouraging but will it deter the ‘chancer’ when they know that their illegal flight will not be discovered unless/until they have an accident ?
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 12:45
  #1728 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EESDL View Post

Can we stop perpetuating the concept of ‘grey area’ charters.
The concern is with illegal flights.
Be it to take bird watchers to Scotland or a footballer to Cardiff.
The 3 1/2-year sentence for Robert Murgatroyd is encouraging but will it deter the ‘chancer’ when they know that their illegal flight will not be discovered unless/until they have an accident ?
Interesting scenario revealed in latest AAIB report G-UFCO. The CAA aquiesence in cost sharing and Wingly type enterprises does in fact create a substantial grey area, and one that lends itself to exploitation.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 03:45
  #1729 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by justmaybe View Post
Interesting scenario revealed in latest AAIB report G-UFCO. The CAA aquiesence in cost sharing and Wingly type enterprises does in fact create a substantial grey area, and one that lends itself to exploitation.
I have just read that report and clearly the arrangement had been going on for years.

In the Barton sentencing report this point emerged.
Murgatroyd's insurance was void as he held a private pilot's licence and was not allowed to run commercial flights.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-47589932

So I guess the insurers would refuse to pay for the airframe loss. No doubt the same applies to the Ibbotson aircraft.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 07:33
  #1730 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post

In the Barton sentencing report this point emerged.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-47589932

So I guess the insurers would refuse to pay for the airframe loss. No doubt the same applies to the Ibbotson aircraft.
Well RM is bankrupt andin prison the other guy is dead. One likely couldn't care less and the other is certain not to care less....
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 10:42
  #1731 (permalink)  
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I think you guys should open a new thread discussing legal, insurance issues and regulatory issues .
As far as Aviation professionals are concerned this is a clear case of a pilot having accepted to do a flight for which he was unqualified. Period. The rest is for the lawyers..and whether it was private or commercial ops is for the judge to determine in the end..
Can we prevent this from happening again . No. There are always 1% of people that want to bend the rules. Tightening the rules will not change that , just affect the 99% of us that do follow the rules...
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 11:06
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
Well RM is bankrupt andin prison the other guy is dead. One likely couldn't care less and the other is certain not to care less....
g-bakh was owned by British North West Airlines, RM’s company. He risked his own assets in making his flight. The owner/s of Sala’s aircraft possibly didn’t realise/know the financial accident implications of the incident flight. They might want some recompense if the insurance company takes the same stance. This might start to send the message to illegal charterers that any incident means damages won’t be covered be it total loss or mild hangar rash.

ATCwatcher, why should someone else do it? nothing stopping you starting any thread you think should be started, crack on. The legal/insurance/licensing issues etc are key elements to this thread, and undoubtedly will remain being discussed here whilst of interest to contributors.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 17:58
  #1733 (permalink)  
 
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It’s fascinating that the owner of the airacrft has still not been identified?
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 19:19
  #1734 (permalink)  
 
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Its perfectly normal with N reg aircraft that are owned by none US citizens.

To be honest even European reg aircraft it can be a bit of a circular effort with several company's being setup and owned by each other in a circular fashion. There have been 747's abandoned in airports round the world where they have never found out who actually owned them to get them to remove them and pay the parking fee's. One is now a hotel in Arlanda.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 19:33
  #1735 (permalink)  
 
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There’s an abandoned light aircraft (Cherokee?) at JER ... even had recent notices in tne local paper “seeking owner”.

Been here for several years, apparently, a bil like the Jet Provost!


Edit to the above: G-OSTU (AA5A Cheetah) was apparently sold about 10 years ago. The last known owner was reportedly a woman in UK who sold it to 'someone in Jersey'. This from the Jersey Evening Post, 19 Mar 19.

Last edited by MPN11; 19th Mar 2019 at 16:42. Reason: as per text
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 19:46
  #1736 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by S-Works View Post
It’s fascinating that the owner of the airacrft has still not been identified?
According to the press Southern Air Consultancy have given the name of the owners to the AAIB . This name has not been released to the public. However as the aircraft was based in the UK whoever was in day to day control of the aircraft will no doubt be known to all who had anything to do with it. If my memory serves me right, I believe I read somewhere on this thread it was kept at Gamston. So there will no doubt be records of who paid for its keep there and who picked up its maintenance bills, who had the keys to it and who the contact name and address was.

I suppose all interested parties are waiting for the Coroners verdict and the final report from AAIB before all manner of court summons start flying around and landing at various addresses of those involved in the whole process. Let`s see whether the Coroner will return a verdict of unlawful killing, accident / misadventure or contributed by neglect.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 15:31
  #1737 (permalink)  
 
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All has been said in this thread and this type of 'illegal' flying has been going on for years to the knowledge of the CAA. Although they can amend and quote the rules 'til the cows (or lucky illegal flights) come home, nothing will change until they take effective enforcement action and hit the perps in the pocket or bang them up to rights before they cause an accident.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 22:48
  #1738 (permalink)  
 
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Can we prevent this from happening again . No. There are always 1% of people that want to bend the rules. Tightening the rules will not change that , just affect the 99% of us that do follow the rules...
Actually this is not quite true. In several industries the rules regarding "compliance" have been progressively developed to promote transparency and consumer rights (financial conduct since circa 2000 and more recently data protection...two good examples). Increasingly the onus falls on the service provider to provide clear, transparent, fair, accurate and consistent advice to the consumer. And the provider, will be often be "end to end" checked in any regulated transaction - often by compliance agencies.

Why is aviation not being held to the same compliance standards?

For example standardised and compulsory risk assessment in all GA marketing. Obligatory availability of insurance documents, logbooks, maintenance records etc to any passenger irrespective of cost basis, together with easy to understand guides of what the consumer should be checking.

Bottom line...nobody should need to get on any sort of aircraft without an clear and transparent understanding of risk.

None of this is hard...other industries, just as complex, have been doing this for years.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 05:41
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Heard yesterday from a colleague that there is an international group of journo's doing research into the grey charter market. They have pulled a years worth of flight data from euro control. And apparently it obvious which airframes are doing it and which pilots. And its not just a UK thing. And we are talking three figure numbers of flights per week inside EASA area.

He was picked up because he ferried an empty aircraft back to Germany on his CPL last year before he started doing multicrew job . Its not just N reg which is involved.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 07:55
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BBC Wales are running this interesting story.

There are calls for a series of flights in the weeks before the fatal crash which killed footballer Emiliano Sala to be investigated by regulators.

The aviation trade body Air Charter Association told BBC Wales it believes there are grounds to investigate other flights linked to the £15m transfer.

These carried Sala, his agent, Cardiff City officials and others between the UK and France in December and January.

In an exclusive interview with BBC Wales, Dave Edwards, chief executive officer of the Air Charter Association (Baca), warned that the "underground growth" of illegal and so-called "grey" charter flights was undermining legitimate air charter companies and putting passengers at risk.

These relate to flights which are not properly licensed under regulations governing aircraft and pilots.

He said the organisation's concerns about the sector date back about seven years and that they hold regular meetings with both the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) and the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (Easa) to discuss the issue.

Mr Edwards said: "The football agent has said on the record that they paid for a series of flights.

"We've done some background research into all of those flights and we're concerned more than ever that all of them have the potential to have, certainly, questions to be asked about them, which is what we've pushed the CAA to be doing recently and also Easa because the origin of the flight was in France so that comes under (their) territory.

"There's enough circumstantial evidence here that would make us push the authorities to do a full investigation into the background to ensure it was compliant."

Baca has done its own research through the European air traffic control agency and established the various operators and pilots for the flights linked to the Sala deal.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-47612188
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