Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 57
Posts: 1,975
With his experience you jump at the chance of almost any free GA flying or right seat on a commercial flight to gather experience. But not as PIC on your Jack Jones on a night IFR flight in a semi capable aircraft with some poor unsuspecting soul sitting in the back. That’s basically manslaughter.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Used to be God's own County
Posts: 1,594
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
And of course knowing his financial predicament Henderson knew he would not decline.
When he handed the aircraft keys to Ibbotson that weekend it must have crossed his mind that he was encouraging and assisting Ibbotson to break the law.
The agent has explained he assigned Henderson to carry out the charter.
The lawyers will be beating a path to his door and given the sums involved this is going to be expensive.
Looking at the wider picture ,we have as others pointed out earlier, the issue of jockey flights and other grey area charters.
AOPA should be making a big fuss about this in the press to highlight how cowboy operations are undermining the genuine AOC companies.
The concern is with illegal flights.
Be it to take bird watchers to Scotland or a footballer to Cardiff.
The 3 1/2-year sentence for Robert Murgatroyd is encouraging but will it deter the ‘chancer’ when they know that their illegal flight will not be discovered unless/until they have an accident ?
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: 55N
Posts: 167
Originally Posted by EESDL
Can we stop perpetuating the concept of ‘grey area’ charters.
The concern is with illegal flights.
Be it to take bird watchers to Scotland or a footballer to Cardiff.
The 3 1/2-year sentence for Robert Murgatroyd is encouraging but will it deter the ‘chancer’ when they know that their illegal flight will not be discovered unless/until they have an accident ?
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: S.E.Asia
Posts: 1,807
Originally Posted by justmaybe
Interesting scenario revealed in latest AAIB report G-UFCO. The CAA aquiesence in cost sharing and Wingly type enterprises does in fact create a substantial grey area, and one that lends itself to exploitation.
In the Barton sentencing report this point emerged.
Murgatroyd's insurance was void as he held a private pilot's licence and was not allowed to run commercial flights.
So I guess the insurers would refuse to pay for the airframe loss. No doubt the same applies to the Ibbotson aircraft.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,097
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
In the Barton sentencing report this point emerged.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-47589932
So I guess the insurers would refuse to pay for the airframe loss. No doubt the same applies to the Ibbotson aircraft.
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 70
Posts: 2,922
I think you guys should open a new thread discussing legal, insurance issues and regulatory issues .
As far as Aviation professionals are concerned this is a clear case of a pilot having accepted to do a flight for which he was unqualified. Period. The rest is for the lawyers..and whether it was private or commercial ops is for the judge to determine in the end..
Can we prevent this from happening again . No. There are always 1% of people that want to bend the rules. Tightening the rules will not change that , just affect the 99% of us that do follow the rules...
As far as Aviation professionals are concerned this is a clear case of a pilot having accepted to do a flight for which he was unqualified. Period. The rest is for the lawyers..and whether it was private or commercial ops is for the judge to determine in the end..
Can we prevent this from happening again . No. There are always 1% of people that want to bend the rules. Tightening the rules will not change that , just affect the 99% of us that do follow the rules...
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: the dark side
Posts: 946
Originally Posted by Pittsextra
Well RM is bankrupt andin prison the other guy is dead. One likely couldn't care less and the other is certain not to care less....
ATCwatcher, why should someone else do it? nothing stopping you starting any thread you think should be started, crack on. The legal/insurance/licensing issues etc are key elements to this thread, and undoubtedly will remain being discussed here whilst of interest to contributors.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 55
Posts: 0
Its perfectly normal with N reg aircraft that are owned by none US citizens.
To be honest even European reg aircraft it can be a bit of a circular effort with several company's being setup and owned by each other in a circular fashion. There have been 747's abandoned in airports round the world where they have never found out who actually owned them to get them to remove them and pay the parking fee's. One is now a hotel in Arlanda.
To be honest even European reg aircraft it can be a bit of a circular effort with several company's being setup and owned by each other in a circular fashion. There have been 747's abandoned in airports round the world where they have never found out who actually owned them to get them to remove them and pay the parking fee's. One is now a hotel in Arlanda.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 76
Posts: 6,039
There’s an abandoned light aircraft (Cherokee?) at JER ... even had recent notices in tne local paper “seeking owner”. 
Been here for several years, apparently, a bil like the Jet Provost!
Edit to the above: G-OSTU (AA5A Cheetah) was apparently sold about 10 years ago. The last known owner was reportedly a woman in UK who sold it to 'someone in Jersey'. This from the Jersey Evening Post, 19 Mar 19.
Been here for several years, apparently, a bil like the Jet Provost!
Edit to the above: G-OSTU (AA5A Cheetah) was apparently sold about 10 years ago. The last known owner was reportedly a woman in UK who sold it to 'someone in Jersey'. This from the Jersey Evening Post, 19 Mar 19.
Last edited by MPN11; 19th Mar 2019 at 17:42. Reason: as per text
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 73
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by S-Works
It’s fascinating that the owner of the airacrft has still not been identified?
I suppose all interested parties are waiting for the Coroners verdict and the final report from AAIB before all manner of court summons start flying around and landing at various addresses of those involved in the whole process. Let`s see whether the Coroner will return a verdict of unlawful killing, accident / misadventure or contributed by neglect.
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 18
All has been said in this thread and this type of 'illegal' flying has been going on for years to the knowledge of the CAA. Although they can amend and quote the rules 'til the cows (or lucky illegal flights) come home, nothing will change until they take effective enforcement action and hit the perps in the pocket or bang them up to rights before they cause an accident.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,516
Can we prevent this from happening again . No. There are always 1% of people that want to bend the rules. Tightening the rules will not change that , just affect the 99% of us that do follow the rules...
Why is aviation not being held to the same compliance standards?
For example standardised and compulsory risk assessment in all GA marketing. Obligatory availability of insurance documents, logbooks, maintenance records etc to any passenger irrespective of cost basis, together with easy to understand guides of what the consumer should be checking.
Bottom line...nobody should need to get on any sort of aircraft without an clear and transparent understanding of risk.
None of this is hard...other industries, just as complex, have been doing this for years.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 55
Posts: 0
Heard yesterday from a colleague that there is an international group of journo's doing research into the grey charter market. They have pulled a years worth of flight data from euro control. And apparently it obvious which airframes are doing it and which pilots. And its not just a UK thing. And we are talking three figure numbers of flights per week inside EASA area.
He was picked up because he ferried an empty aircraft back to Germany on his CPL last year before he started doing multicrew job . Its not just N reg which is involved.
He was picked up because he ferried an empty aircraft back to Germany on his CPL last year before he started doing multicrew job . Its not just N reg which is involved.
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: S.E.Asia
Posts: 1,807
BBC Wales are running this interesting story.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-47612188
There are calls for a series of flights in the weeks before the fatal crash which killed footballer Emiliano Sala to be investigated by regulators.
The aviation trade body Air Charter Association told BBC Wales it believes there are grounds to investigate other flights linked to the £15m transfer.
These carried Sala, his agent, Cardiff City officials and others between the UK and France in December and January.
In an exclusive interview with BBC Wales, Dave Edwards, chief executive officer of the Air Charter Association (Baca), warned that the "underground growth" of illegal and so-called "grey" charter flights was undermining legitimate air charter companies and putting passengers at risk.
These relate to flights which are not properly licensed under regulations governing aircraft and pilots.
He said the organisation's concerns about the sector date back about seven years and that they hold regular meetings with both the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) and the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (Easa) to discuss the issue.
Mr Edwards said: "The football agent has said on the record that they paid for a series of flights.
"We've done some background research into all of those flights and we're concerned more than ever that all of them have the potential to have, certainly, questions to be asked about them, which is what we've pushed the CAA to be doing recently and also Easa because the origin of the flight was in France so that comes under (their) territory.
"There's enough circumstantial evidence here that would make us push the authorities to do a full investigation into the background to ensure it was compliant."
Baca has done its own research through the European air traffic control agency and established the various operators and pilots for the flights linked to the Sala deal.
The aviation trade body Air Charter Association told BBC Wales it believes there are grounds to investigate other flights linked to the £15m transfer.
These carried Sala, his agent, Cardiff City officials and others between the UK and France in December and January.
In an exclusive interview with BBC Wales, Dave Edwards, chief executive officer of the Air Charter Association (Baca), warned that the "underground growth" of illegal and so-called "grey" charter flights was undermining legitimate air charter companies and putting passengers at risk.
These relate to flights which are not properly licensed under regulations governing aircraft and pilots.
He said the organisation's concerns about the sector date back about seven years and that they hold regular meetings with both the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) and the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (Easa) to discuss the issue.
Mr Edwards said: "The football agent has said on the record that they paid for a series of flights.
"We've done some background research into all of those flights and we're concerned more than ever that all of them have the potential to have, certainly, questions to be asked about them, which is what we've pushed the CAA to be doing recently and also Easa because the origin of the flight was in France so that comes under (their) territory.
"There's enough circumstantial evidence here that would make us push the authorities to do a full investigation into the background to ensure it was compliant."
Baca has done its own research through the European air traffic control agency and established the various operators and pilots for the flights linked to the Sala deal.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cardiff
Age: 44
Posts: 93
Yes . Here is the list of flights which are being investigated by the Air Charter Association :-
- 5 December 2018 - Flight from Stapleford in Essex to Nantes - carrying Cardiff City manager Neil Warnock, assistant manager Kevin Blackwell, Willie McKay and Mark McKay to see Emiliano Sala play against Marseilles
- 6 December - party returns from Nantes to Cardiff. Both flights made on G-KARE, operated by Surrey-based Flexifly Aircraft Hire Ltd
- 8 January 2019 - Flight from Cardiff to Nantes - carrying Neil Warnock, Cardiff City player liaison Callum Davies, Willie and Mark McKay to meet Sala and his agent. They're flown back to Cardiff the same day. On N531EA, owned by Guernsey-based Channel Jets
- 14 January - Sala's agent, Meissa N'Diaye, flown from Paris to Nantes. N'Diaye and Sala are flown from Nantes to Cardiff to have a look around the Cardiff City Stadium, returning to Nantes the same day. N'Diaye is then flown back to Paris. All flights made on N843TE - owned by Channel Jets
- 18 January - Sala flies from Nantes to Cardiff for a medical and to sign his contract with Cardiff City. Via Channel Jets in N531EA. Sala's agent N'Diaye - who has travelled to Cardiff for the signing via a commercial flight - flown back to Paris by Lord George Porchester in his own aircraft, N14EF
- 19 January - Sala flown back to Nantes by David Ibbotson on N264DB to bid farewell to his Nantes team-mates and make personal arrangements. Mr Ibbotson books into a hotel to await the return leg of the journey - on 21 January - to deliver Sala back to Cardiff for his first training session
- 21 January - the flight leaves Nantes at 19:15 and disappears from radar around an hour into the journey.
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: S.E.Asia
Posts: 1,807
I think we all know there are many unanswered questions regarding the crashed Malibu and if I was investigating Gamston airport would be top of my list.
That is where the aircraft was based and it appears operated by David Henderson who the agents claim was their regular pilot.
I suspect he was also involved in arranging flights for the McKays if we believe their press statements.
I will be very surprised if we don’t see a CAA prosecution further down the line.
Clearly many aircraft operators have been hiding behind N registration to operate in the grey zone.
Europe appears quite lax in allowing N reg aircraft to be home based without returning to the USA.
These aircraft are operating under what clearly is a flag of convenience.
Across Asia to Japan and down to Australia and New Zealand this is not permitted.
That is where the aircraft was based and it appears operated by David Henderson who the agents claim was their regular pilot.
I suspect he was also involved in arranging flights for the McKays if we believe their press statements.
I will be very surprised if we don’t see a CAA prosecution further down the line.
Clearly many aircraft operators have been hiding behind N registration to operate in the grey zone.
Europe appears quite lax in allowing N reg aircraft to be home based without returning to the USA.
These aircraft are operating under what clearly is a flag of convenience.
Across Asia to Japan and down to Australia and New Zealand this is not permitted.
Last edited by Mike Flynn; 19th Mar 2019 at 14:07.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: In the shed
Age: 74
Posts: 63
Channel Jets AOC
Originally Posted by korrol
Yes . Here is the list of flights which are being investigated by the Air Charter Association :-
- 5 December 2018 - Flight from Stapleford in Essex to Nantes - carrying Cardiff City manager Neil Warnock, assistant manager Kevin Blackwell, Willie McKay and Mark McKay to see Emiliano Sala play against Marseilles
- 6 December - party returns from Nantes to Cardiff. Both flights made on G-KARE, operated by Surrey-based Flexifly Aircraft Hire Ltd
- 8 January 2019 - Flight from Cardiff to Nantes - carrying Neil Warnock, Cardiff City player liaison Callum Davies, Willie and Mark McKay to meet Sala and his agent. They're flown back to Cardiff the same day. On N531EA, owned by Guernsey-based Channel Jets
- 14 January - Sala's agent, Meissa N'Diaye, flown from Paris to Nantes. N'Diaye and Sala are flown from Nantes to Cardiff to have a look around the Cardiff City Stadium, returning to Nantes the same day. N'Diaye is then flown back to Paris. All flights made on N843TE - owned by Channel Jets
- 18 January - Sala flies from Nantes to Cardiff for a medical and to sign his contract with Cardiff City. Via Channel Jets in N531EA. Sala's agent N'Diaye - who has travelled to Cardiff for the signing via a commercial flight - flown back to Paris by Lord George Porchester in his own aircraft, N14EF
- 19 January - Sala flown back to Nantes by David Ibbotson on N264DB to bid farewell to his Nantes team-mates and make personal arrangements. Mr Ibbotson books into a hotel to await the return leg of the journey - on 21 January - to deliver Sala back to Cardiff for his first training session
- 21 January - the flight leaves Nantes at 19:15 and disappears from radar around an hour into the journey.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 900
Originally Posted by captainspeaking
I don't understand why there is a problem with the Channel jets flights; they have a Guernsey AOC.
SND
