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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 19th Feb 2019, 14:05
  #1401 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jonzarno View Post


Only if this was claimed to be a cost sharing flight, which I don’t think it was.

it may well be an illegal charter, but the “common purpose” provision has nothing to do with that.

If it was a straightforward commercial flight the illegality is obvious, but I would suspect a cost sharing scheme will be claimed, making the flight "legal"
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 14:23
  #1402 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vanHorck View Post
If it was a straightforward commercial flight the illegality is obvious, but I would suspect a cost sharing scheme will be claimed, making the flight "legal"
I did wonder if it was done by way of lease transferring operational control to McKay’s company for the duration of the flight and he then hired his own flight crew. However, he denied that with the first words out of his mouth when he said that he had no control over either aircraft or pilot. It may have come as a huge surprise to David Henderson when he discovered that he had been sacrificed.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 15:22
  #1403 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post


Looking at the wider picture surely it is time for the FAA and CAA to legislate and abolish the abuse of this N flag of convenience.

Clearly the reason many UK based light aircraft operate on the FAA register is to exploit the fact that it is cheaper and less regulated. Here is Asia there is a rule whereby foreign registered aircraft can only stay in the country for a limited period.

Regarding agent’s part in the tragedy he clearly has passed the buck.



I am not a legal expert but I imagine one of ‘ his regular pilots ‘ has played a significant part in all this.
With respect to @Mike Flynn, there are many perfectly legitimate reasons to have an N reg within the UK on a long term basis. The FAA allow certain modifications that the CAA don't (don't ask me which - the engineer was very passionate about why the mod concerned was so excellent and couldn't fathom the CAA stance on it). I recently flew in an N Reg Comanche that was kept N reg for sentimental reasons (it was keeping it's original registration) and had the aformentioned modification or even several of them. It was the most immaculate machine I've ever seen and certainly well maintained. The FAA have different rules but I am not sure that N reg aircraft fall out of European skies any more frequently than G reg or IoM or CI registered aircraft. Let's try to have a reasoned debate not a knee jerk "something must be done" type responses?

If there are costs to be saved by being on the N reg (whether for the aircraft or the pilot) then presumably that frees up cash to allow more time perfecting the skills flying the machinery. More hours flying tends, for me, to mean better skills and safer operations.

Personally I prefer the discussion about causes, or possible causes of issues within aviation rather than legal conjecture on all sorts of things reported in the Sun newspaper!
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 15:40
  #1404 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post


Looking at the wider picture surely it is time for the FAA and CAA to legislate and abolish the abuse of this N flag of convenience.

Clearly the reason many UK based light aircraft operate on the FAA register is to exploit the fact that it is cheaper and less regulated. Here is Asia there is a rule whereby foreign registered aircraft can only stay in the country for a limited period.

Regarding agent’s part in the tragedy he clearly has passed the buck.
Mike. I struggle to understand which aspect of this unfortunate affair has anything to do with the letter painted on the side of the aircraft. Perhaps you could clarify.

The CAA is required to have oversight of all flying occurring in the UK FIR regardless of the registry of the aircraft concerned. If there is an issue with questionable charters, the issue is a lack of oversight in general, unless you are suggesting that the CAA somehow watches G reg ops like a hawk and ignores the N reg ops.

There are, in my view, two reasons why there is a proliferation of N reg in Europe, neither (directly) associated with cost.

1. The FAA flight crew licensing regime has been rock steady whilst we in the Uk have watched a dogs dinner unfold as we’ve moved from CAA to JAA to EASA to whatever next.

2. The FAA has historically been far faster to approve new technologies, making the register far more attractive to those operating more advanced aircraft.

The accident rate on the N reg fleet globally is far better than the G reg fleet (so far as these things can be compared) and the FAA has not been slow to act when circumstances require.

In situations like this, it is easy to point at the registry and claim that it has something to do with the events concerned. Right now, I see no link. Tell me why I am wrong.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 18:50
  #1405 (permalink)  
 
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So in summary:
1. In due course, the UK AAIB will produce their report summarising their considered view on what is likely to have happened. Along with many reading and contributing to this forum, I now have my own view - based on the original circumstances and the many, many valid inputs provided in this forum.
2. The US FAA have little practical interest, as they are not responsible for enforcement outside the US, the pilot involved is no longer with us and so has no US licence to lose, and the practical owners (whoever and wherever they may turn out to be) do not operate in the US.
3. The UK CAA will continue to give this murky area the good ignoring which appears to have gone on for years. A moderate increase in carefully judged enforcement action would probably do something at little cost to level the playing fields between those who play by the rules - and incur the costs thereof - and those who cheat the system and thumb their noses at the formal checks and balances. That those checks and balances are based on painful experience seems never to register with those cowboys. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of relevant regulation - just an appalling lack of responsibility in monitoring and enforcing.
4. The extent to which the responsibilities of those behind this whole sorry saga are exposed will be based on the various financial and 'political' interests of the parties. With some £15M in play and some deep pockets to keep the lawyers busy, this one could run and run.

Cynical? Moi?
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 19:13
  #1406 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Strumble Head View Post
So in summary:
1. In due course, the UK AAIB will produce their report summarising their considered view on what is likely to have happened. Along with many reading and contributing to this forum, I now have my own view - based on the original circumstances and the many, many valid inputs provided in this forum.
2. The US FAA have little practical interest, as they are not responsible for enforcement outside the US, the pilot involved is no longer with us and so has no US licence to lose, and the practical owners (whoever and wherever they may turn out to be) do not operate in the US.
3. The UK CAA will continue to give this murky area the good ignoring which appears to have gone on for years. A moderate increase in carefully judged enforcement action would probably do something at little cost to level the playing fields between those who play by the rules - and incur the costs thereof - and those who cheat the system and thumb their noses at the formal checks and balances. That those checks and balances are based on painful experience seems never to register with those cowboys. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of relevant regulation - just an appalling lack of responsibility in monitoring and enforcing.
4. The extent to which the responsibilities of those behind this whole sorry saga are exposed will be based on the various financial and 'political' interests of the parties. With some £15M in play and some deep pockets to keep the lawyers busy, this one could run and run.

Cynical? Moi?
and rightly so.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...emiliano-sala/

McKay says Cardiff City are ‘Throwing me under the bus’.

The club who were organising a nice safe commercial flight for their very expensive new signing are overruled by a cowboy who hires another cowboy who sub-contracts the job to another cowboy. And now cowboy #1 wonders why his actions are being investigated?

Poor poor man! From what I’ve learned so far, ‘under the bus’ is just where he (and his No 1 pilot) belong!
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 19:23
  #1407 (permalink)  
 
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Yep, this all comes down to insurance. It is fair to assume that Mr Sala, in particular his footballing prowess, was insured by someone and that policy will be cashed-in. For sure the prime underwriter will be looking to minimise his exposure and he will spend a lot of money in pursuing other parties in order that they pay for their part in the loss. The cause of the crash is (probably) largely irrelevant.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 19:45
  #1408 (permalink)  
 
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I can 100% assure the nay sayers that the UK CAA Enforcement branch are taking this very seriously and are pursing it VERY actively............
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 19:54
  #1409 (permalink)  
 
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A new search for the body of a missing pilot David Ibbotson could start next week according to BBC Humberside. This search will also be masterminded by David Mearns who located the crashed aircraft containing Sala's body.Mearns says the new search will be "technically very different" to the discovery of the missing aircraft and is depepdebnt on good weather, neap tides and flight permits. The finding is coming from donors who have given to the Ibbotson family . Gary Lineker has chipped in £1,000
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 20:32
  #1410 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by S-Works View Post
I can 100% assure the nay sayers that the UK CAA Enforcement branch are taking this very seriously and are pursing it VERY actively............
Thank you. My earlier comment was based only on the commentaries in this thread, as I had no counterbalancing information. It's a very long time since I had any contacts in/with the CAA (last thirty-odd years experience was with military aviation.) In common with many, I will be encouraged if the CAA is both resourced and supported in appropriate enforcement action(s.)
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 20:49
  #1411 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Strumble Head View Post
Thank you. My earlier comment was based only on the commentaries in this thread, as I had no counterbalancing information. It's a very long time since I had any contacts in/with the CAA (last thirty-odd years experience was with military aviation.) In common with many, I will be encouraged if the CAA is both resourced and supported in appropriate enforcement action(s.)
i would not want to be in any of the involved parties shoes....
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 09:49
  #1412 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
Excerpts from an interview McKay has had with the Daily Telegraph.

This timeline, which he shared with Telegraph Sport, shows his son had organised and paid for two earlier flights to Nantes for Cardiff manager Neil Warnock to watch the striker and two between the cities for the player

The Scot has repeatedly stressed he neither owns the doomed plane nor had any input into the selection of it or the pilot, Dave Ibbotson.

McKay said he routinely funded the flights and hotels of players he was contracted to sell – and even managers he was trying to sell them to – listing the practice among “gambles” he took in the hope of securing a lucrative payday.’
So we have someone denying ownership of the Malibu, and admitting to pay for it. He has not mentioned anything about cost sharing.
So he is paying for one party at least.

By saying that he has contracted someone else to make the arrangements, he has passed the buck onto the PIC.
It will be very hard to nail him for anything. Henderson on the other hand will be looked at under a microscope.

As for the Eclipse flights, under cost sharing, these are illegal to do so.

European and National regulations permit cost sharing as follows:

  • The flight is a cost-shared flight by private individuals.
  • The direct costs of the flight must be shared between all of the occupants of the aircraft, including the pilot, up to a maximum of 6 persons.
  • The cost-sharing arrangements apply to any other-than complex motor-powered EASAaircraft and this includes aircraft registered outside of the EASA area but operated by an operator established or residing in the Community.
  • Cost-sharing is also permitted in non-EASA(Annex II of the Basic Regulation) aircraft registered in the UK.
This encompasses N registered aircraft.
Full website can be found here.
https://www.caa.co.uk/General-aviati...aring-flights/

The buck has been well and truly passed onto Ibbotson and Henderson.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 10:29
  #1413 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2 View Post
As for the Eclipse flights, under cost sharing, these are illegal to do so.
So far I have read nowhere that those flights were performed on cost sharing basis. In one of the interviews further up the page the manager (Mr.McKay) said that he paid for them. Alone. There is nothing illegal about that. Lots and lots of corporate flying is done this way: The company owns or rents a plane and either one of it's employees with a license or a contracted pilot flies it. The important thing is that no one must be invoiced for that flight.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 10:51
  #1414 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
So far I have read nowhere that those flights were performed on cost sharing basis. In one of the interviews further up the page the manager (Mr.McKay) said that he paid for them. Alone. There is nothing illegal about that. Lots and lots of corporate flying is done this way: The company owns or rents a plane and either one of it's employees with a license or a contracted pilot flies it. The important thing is that no one must be invoiced for that flight.
Who has operational control? Mckay has said quite firmly several times that his company did not have operational control. That leaves Henderson having operational control and presumably his name is on the paperwork as having provided aircraft and pilot. Of course Henderson may have an entirely different view of the transaction, we don't know.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 11:17
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
Who has operational control?
That would be Mr. McKay. It does not matter if he phones the parties involved (the owner of the plane and the pilot who flies it) himself or delegates those calls to his secretary, Mr. Henderson or Donald Duck. If Mr. Henderson, through his connections, gets a better price for the plane it would indeed be a wise move to let him do the talking. As long as the invoice for the plane is paid by him (McKay) as well as the fee for the pilot (in case he has a commercial license). The ultimate responsinbility to perform the flight within the legal frame rests with the pilot in command. I have flown like that for a large company for years. Their lawyer and their insurance people were happy with it. Countless ramp inspectors found nothing wrong with it.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 11:27
  #1416 (permalink)  
 
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How it used to be done

My experience has largely UK Military and police flying, I did for a period fly corporate out of a small London airfield. The company I worked for held an AOC though we were based side by side with many other aviation enterprises and shared the airfield cafe with the whole spectrum of pilot's and visitors/clients etc.
The basis of our businesses was to offer a corporate service of providing aircraft and crew for charters, most business would come via a broker, these brokers would receive a request from a client and then phone around the companies to find the best fit and lowest cost. It often became a back and forth negotiation with our ops staff. We pilot's would be allocated the task the day before unless it was a rush job.
The client would often have no idea who or what would be flying them until they arrived at the agreed pick up point. They certainly would have no idea of the pilots qualifications or the capabilities of the pilot or the aircraft.
It often turned out that the broker had promised things to the client to seal the deal that left we pilot's spinning plates on the day, or having to explain the real world to the client in an uncomfortable conversation.
It was also the case that one pilot willing to bend the rules or give in to the client could set a dangerous precedent for those that followed.

​​​​​​In summary, I'd be looking at the broker first and foremost and work out in both directions from there.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 11:37
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
That would be Mr. McKay. It does not matter if he phones the parties involved (the owner of the plane and the pilot who flies it) himself or delegates those calls to his secretary, Mr. Henderson or Donald Duck. If Mr. Henderson, through his connections, gets a better price for the plane it would indeed be a wise move to let him do the talking. As long as the invoice for the plane is paid by him (McKay) as well as the fee for the pilot (in case he has a commercial license). The ultimate responsinbility to perform the flight within the legal frame rests with the pilot in command. I have flown like that for a large company for years. Their lawyer and their insurance people were happy with it. Countless ramp inspectors found nothing wrong with it.
The company you work for, even though they may have delegated authority to someone else, will say that they decided what aircraft to hire and what pilot to hire. They have also informed the insurers as to how the aircraft is being operated.
I have always taken the view that Mckay could have said that he was providing his corporate aircraft for free. However his public statements don't describe that, they describe a charter provided by Henderson.
Now he may be saying one thing in public and another to the investigators. We will have to wait and see.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 12:29
  #1418 (permalink)  
 
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Art, what you've described is the work of a proper Charter Broker who one hopes wouldn't consider using a non AOC operator for their clients.
That is a world apart from an ex bookie gotten greedy...
I'm sure the sheer amount of flights this guy has organised will spark the close interest of the CAA.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 13:00
  #1419 (permalink)  
 
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Operational Control:

There is either an ops manual stating who has operational control, or it is the PIC.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 13:13
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
The company you work for, even though they may have delegated authority to someone else, will say that they decided what aircraft to hire and what pilot to hire. They have also informed the insurers as to how the aircraft is being operated.
I have always taken the view that Mckay could have said that he was providing his corporate aircraft for free. However his public statements don't describe that, they describe a charter provided by Henderson.
Now he may be saying one thing in public and another to the investigators. We will have to wait and see.
"Duty of care" will be the gotcha !
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