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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 12th Feb 2019, 09:36
  #1321 (permalink)  
 
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So what are the directors of the owner/operator going to say? It could be either:

1) They are operating illegal public transport for which they were paid by Willie Mckay or
2) They fly footballers around for free for their mates or
3) They hire the aircraft to David Henderson and they have no idea who he then asks to pilot it

I don't see that there are any other possibilities.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 10:37
  #1322 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GotTheTshirt View Post
Regarding the "registration"of the aircraft then there is another situation that I have not seen commented on.
US ownership of anything is considered property tax which varies from State to State and is usually an annual tax and can be quite expensive.
There are a few states that do not have property tax, Delaware and Nevada used be the two that I was familiar with.
You will find that the registered US address for companies that provide this registration "facility" are registered in one of these states.
True but totally irrelevant in this case since this aircraft is owned in Trust, the address of which is in the UK. Under such arrangements, it is sufficient that the Trustee(s) are US persons.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 10:43
  #1323 (permalink)  

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2) They fly footballers around for free for their mates
There probably aren't many charity organisations flying multi-million pound footballers about.....
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 11:55
  #1324 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by suninmyeyes View Post
Coincidentally in the March edition of Pilot magazine the ILAFT column tells the story of a Piper Malibu flight from Rotterdam to the UK with a commercial pilot in the left seat and an experienced instrument rated pilot with 1,500 hours in the right hand seat. Having descended into the UK they levelled off at 2,400 feet in IMC conditions using the autopilot but forgot to add power and very nearly stalled. The non-professional pilot in the right hand seat realised and added power a few knots above flap up stall speed having suddenly noticed the ASI unwinding rapidly. That is always a trap when descending and using an autopilot for heading and altitude capture but manual throttle. Because the autopilot is engaged it can give a false sense that all is under control.

There are several possibilities for what happened to Sala’s plane but the above error is certainly a possible candidate aided by ice distraction and night IMC.
Thanks for that one , a probability yes, as having read that the probable cause of death of Sala was multiples injuries, it does not sound like it was a controlled smooth sea ditching.
Another one is just severe ice accumulation slowly but surely pushing the aircraft down despite all de-icing devices on and full power . A good description of this is the famous book of E.K Gann " Island in the sky".
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 12:19
  #1325 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
So what are the directors of the owner/operator going to say? It could be either:

1) They are operating illegal public transport for which they were paid by Willie Mckay or
2) They fly footballers around for free for their mates or
3) They hire the aircraft to David Henderson and they have no idea who he then asks to pilot it

I don't see that there are any other possibilities.
almost probably (3)
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 12:57
  #1326 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Another one is just severe ice accumulation slowly but surely pushing the aircraft down despite all de-icing devices on and full power . A good description of this is the famous book of E.K Gann " Island in the sky".
It's scary, very scary - in my younger days I declared two Maydays and one Pan as above in piston and turbo prop twins - full power, speed coming back and still with a ROD on. Turned over the sea - only solution is to get above 0C and even then it, at +1C/+2C, takes forever to come off.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 18:49
  #1327 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
So what are the directors of the owner/operator going to say? It could be either:

1) They are operating illegal public transport for which they were paid by Willie Mckay or
2) They fly footballers around for free for their mates or
3) They hire the aircraft to David Henderson and they have no idea who he then asks to pilot it

I don't see that there are any other possibilities.
Well it could just be David Henderson or it could be to a number of different companies besides David Henderson's business or it could be they mostly use the airplane themselves and occasionally rent it out.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 20:02
  #1328 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


I have all along maintained that the Ibbotson family should be treated with respect and given our condolences for their loss. I also respect their wish to defend Dave Ibbotson, I hope all our families would do the same for us. However, I think this media appearance was very ill advised.
Indeed so. However, I imagine that right now, they need the money...
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 23:08
  #1329 (permalink)  
 
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An echo of the fatal Buddy Holly flight


Last edited by OwnNav; 14th Feb 2019 at 20:58.
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 12:11
  #1330 (permalink)  
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I would guess the police will need to await the Coroners verdict before they may consider investigations for any criminal acts which may have led to the deaths of the occupants. The coroner in adjourning the hearing may well have decided to wait for the AAIB report.

I think it is more likely that the Coroner will wait for the police report, to have all available evidence before him. The purpose of the inquest is not to apportion blame, indeed the rules specifically state that no civil or criminal liability can be specified against any named individual.
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 12:16
  #1331 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JFW View Post
I think it is more likely that the Coroner will wait for the police report, to have all available evidence before him. The purpose of the inquest is not to apportion blame, indeed the rules specifically state that no civil or criminal liability can be specified against any named individual.
Indeed so.

From a previous post:

Senior acting coroner Brendan Allen said that investigations were being carried out by the police, the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) and the Civil Aviation Authority.



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Old 13th Feb 2019, 23:31
  #1332 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JFW View Post





I think it is more likely that the Coroner will wait for the police report, to have all available evidence before him. The purpose of the inquest is not to apportion blame, indeed the rules specifically state that no civil or criminal liability can be specified against any named individual.


Right. He will seek to ascertain

1. Who
2. When
3. Where
4. How

but not why. He has very wide ranging powers too.

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Old 14th Feb 2019, 16:55
  #1333 (permalink)  
 
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Surely this function on a well known private 'flight sharing' website is fundamentally illegal and should be removed?
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 17:10
  #1334 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cambridge172 View Post
Surely this function on a well known private 'flight sharing' website is fundamentally illegal and should be removed?
Although I am not the biggest fan of flight sharing sites (and would never have allowed my son to use such a service while I still had the power to forbid anything to him) this is not illegal in Europe as long as European registered aircraft are used. And as long as the cost is shared between all occupants, including the pilot, and the latter does not receive any kind of remuneration. And some more conditions are met most of which have been listed on this thread several times already.

(See for example page 4 of this document from EASA: https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...AIR_OPS_EN.pdf)

Last edited by what next; 14th Feb 2019 at 17:43.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 18:23
  #1335 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
Although I am not the biggest fan of flight sharing sites (and would never have allowed my son to use such a service while I still had the power to forbid anything to him) this is not illegal in Europe as long as European registered aircraft are used. And as long as the cost is shared between all occupants, including the pilot, and the latter does not receive any kind of remuneration. And some more conditions are met most of which have been listed on this thread several times already.

(See for example page 4 of this document from EASA: https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...AIR_OPS_EN.pdf)
I think you'll find that most insurers don't agree - they consider it commercial (from a discussion with an underwriter this week). I think almost all PPL owners/renters who ask the question of their insurers will be shocked. Of course, very few ask as they don't want to hear the answer. The courts will decide in the end.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 19:15
  #1336 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Good Business Sense View Post
I think you'll find that most insurers don't agree .
No, no, no! Regulations and laws are made by states, not by insureres. We are talking about legality here. Cost sharing flights (observing the relevant rules) are legal in EASA member countries. How much an insurer has to pay in case of an accident has nothing to do with that.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 20:52
  #1337 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
No, no, no! Regulations and laws are made by states, not by insureres. We are talking about legality here. Cost sharing flights (observing the relevant rules) are legal in EASA member countries. How much an insurer has to pay in case of an accident has nothing to do with that.
If flying outside of the parameters of what's insured then that is a legal issue. Technically you'd be flying without insurance.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 22:16
  #1338 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
No, no, no! Regulations and laws are made by states, not by insureres. We are talking about legality here. Cost sharing flights (observing the relevant rules) are legal in EASA member countries. How much an insurer has to pay in case of an accident has nothing to do with that.
Its perfectly legal for me to take my car on a track day. But my insurance will be invalid.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 22:28
  #1339 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arkroyal View Post
Its perfectly legal for me to take my car on a track day. But my insurance will be invalid.
And you'll be a danger to nobody but yourself. Spot the difference.

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Old 14th Feb 2019, 22:30
  #1340 (permalink)  
 
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If your insurance policy doesn’t specifically exclude legal cost sharing flights, I can’t see on what basis an insurer could refuse to pay. You are flying within the scope of your licence and not in breach of a specific exclusion.
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