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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 11th Feb 2019, 15:15
  #1301 (permalink)  
 
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investigations were being carried out by the police, the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) and the Civil Aviation Authority.
Interesting. What offence of Police interest would that be, gentlemen?
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 15:22
  #1302 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect the police are investigating whether an offence may have been committed.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 15:22
  #1303 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mach Tuck View Post
Well he’s alleged to have undertaken a revenue flight without a commercial endorsement, a night flight without a night endorsement and an instrument flight without an instrument endorsement so is there any reason to assume he had a complex endorsement? It has also been alleged that he is a very experienced pilot so why wouldn’t someone give him the keys to the Malibu?
There seems to be some confusion about the meaning of "endorsement". In FAA parlance, a pilot may hold a license with commercial privileges and that license may including an "instrument airplane" rating. The terms "commercial endorsement" and "instrument endorsement" have, to the best of my knowledge, no meaning in the context of an FAA issued pilot license. "Night endorsement" does have meaning and is applicable to a student pilot who has been authorized for solo night flight.

A pilot who has received training for complex (as defined by FAA) aircraft earns no additional rating and there is no change to the pilot's license. The training, and approval, is documented in the pilot's log book by the instructor who gave the training. The log entry is an "endorsement".

Last edited by EXDAC; 11th Feb 2019 at 18:05. Reason: correct "plot's" to "pilot's"
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 16:34
  #1304 (permalink)  
 
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Not suggesting that this flight was anything to do with cost-sharing, but having done some searching on the internet today I came up with 13 websites offering to fly you anywhere. None of them were AOC holders. This is just one example.... https://www.flissair.com/book-online...e8y8gK-qviQLCQ

Add to these all the Facebook pages - I'm absolutely shocked. Must be time for a change in the law..
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 17:16
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Originally Posted by five zero by ortac View Post
Not suggesting that this flight was anything to do with cost-sharing, but having done some searching on the internet today I came up with 13 websites offering to fly you anywhere. None of them were AOC holders. This is just one example.... https://www.flissair.com/book-online...e8y8gK-qviQLCQ

Add to these all the Facebook pages - I'm absolutely shocked. Must be time for a change in the law..
I'm wondering if the owner of the Navajo knows it appears on a site like that? I have to admit that is quite something to see Flissair's website. I cannot imagine they'd be busy but the point is that they shouldn't be there at all. I certainly wouldn't want to fly with someone I didn't know. It's a shocker!
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 18:08
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Just the sort of UK-JER I had vaguely considered in the distant past, before deciding this was NOT the most sensible way to go. From Camberley, a quick run down the M3 to SOU and then a proper airline to JER worked very well for many years ... and cheaper too, it seems!

Last edited by MPN11; 11th Feb 2019 at 18:19.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 19:13
  #1307 (permalink)  
 
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Good post, very true, the industry is responsible
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 20:38
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The discussions regarding "complex" type and any pilot training and endorsement also raises the question whether it would also be an insurers requirement for such qualifications and possibly a minimum hours on the aircraft and or approved flight simulator to be conducted by an approved provider. If such terms are stipulated under the insurers policy are not complied with then the possibility of uninsured flight with its attendant consequences, not only in terms of civil liability but also in respect of any regulatory and legislative breaches may inevitably follow.
Therefore the question of complex or not for the purposes of cost-sharing is one that carries great significance.

Does this incident not reveal how tenuous it is to walk that tight rope that lies stretched between flying for leisure and pleasure and commercial flying for hire and reward. When one flies for leisure and pleasure one does it for enjoyment, it is pleasant, the sky is blue and you can see forever and so does ones friends. It is a completely different kettle of fish when one does it as work.

Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
Interesting. What offence of Police interest would that be, gentlemen?
I would guess the police will need to await the Coroners verdict before they may consider investigations for any criminal acts which may have led to the deaths of the occupants. The coroner in adjourning the hearing may well have decided to wait for the AAIB report.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 21:13
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Looking forward from this tragedy there will surely be judicial proceedings that will encompass liability for the loss of the aircraft, the pilot, and the high worth passenger?

Underwriters will be quaking in their boots or rejoicing given the complex issues of this extraordinary air accident?
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 22:49
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 23:01
  #1311 (permalink)  
 
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I've just viewed the article from the link above..all very well and good but he doesnt give his theory as to what has happened...according to a TV programme today, David Ibbotsons wife maintained that he was able to fly passengers but then stopped short of saying anything further.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 23:06
  #1312 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post

From the article:

Hernández’s story sheds some light on the unresolved tragedy and the plane which has become the center of a British investigation since its remains were found last Sunday.
Er, no it doesn't.

Though presumably it has earned him a few bob.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 23:25
  #1313 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Silver_Light View Post
I've just viewed the article from the link above..all very well and good but he doesnt give his theory as to what has happened...according to a TV programme today, David Ibbotsons wife maintained that he was able to fly passengers but then stopped short of saying anything further.
I have all along maintained that the Ibbotson family should be treated with respect and given our condolences for their loss. I also respect their wish to defend Dave Ibbotson, I hope all our families would do the same for us. However, I think this media appearance was very ill advised.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 00:15
  #1314 (permalink)  
 
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Cost sharing ??

Originally Posted by ShropshirePilot View Post
I'm wondering if the owner of the Navajo knows it appears on a site like that? I have to admit that is quite something to see Flissair's website. I cannot imagine they'd be busy but the point is that they shouldn't be there at all. I certainly wouldn't want to fly with someone I didn't know. It's a shocker!
The Flissair website claims that flights are operated under ”cost-sharing” rules, yet quotes set prices for flights. A PA31 Navajo Chieftain can typically accommodate up to10 pax, yet the fare is apparently unrelated to the number of pax booking: how can this possibly square with “cost-sharing”?? Presumably the flight is cancelled if the figures don’t stack up....
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 01:50
  #1315 (permalink)  
 
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I think the most significant issues that are yet to be established concern the identities of those involved in arranging this flight and their respective culpability.

Although we await the invaluable information from the AAIB that could provide us with the specific technical causal factors of this tragedy, after reading Mearn's and others remarks, I fear that little more than has been previously stated on this forum will be learnt. Without recovery we won't know for certain if there was any number of specific causes- pilot incapacitation, pilot spatial disorientation, engine failure, icing on leading edges, icing on prop, if weight or CG issues compounded the difficult situation. A full recovery may not answer all those questions but it would certainly be able to eliminate some possibilities.

Again, as previously stated, everyone and their brother knows that this was an illegal/'grey' charter in a private plane in IMC under control of a PIC who only had a daytime VFR PPL. If there's any doubts or 'grey' area in your mind- see 'Bobertz'- concerning an FAA licenced CPL in a private N-reg within the US on a 'cost-sharing' flight. See end of post to read in full.

As I've been alluding to, I feel that the only thing we'll learn in aviation terms from this tragedy is some clarity on licensing, regulation and hopefully some endeavour by those with the authority to do so to clamp down on those taking commercial advantage of the 'grey area'. I doubt we'll see a bulletin about a PA46's icing boots needing to be re-designed, or, all 4 year old turbine engines on 35 year old planes need dumped! One wee question going round in my head- did the computer whizz kids that set up the wingly website do it for free? 🧐 If not, that means they're profiting even if the pilots on the site are simply sharing costs. Does that make wingly in itself an unlicensed Air Operator? I've been trying to think about it 🤪

As has been said before- increased regulations and paperwork will only hurt those who abide by the rules. The rules are there already, and those breaking them now will still break them afterwards. It's a matter of increased detection, public awareness, CAA being more pro-active in seeking non-compliant operators and harsher on them when they're caught etc.

The legal ramafications from this accident alone should hopefully serve as a warning to those flouting the rules. Insurance companies (apart from the families) possibly have the most to lose. As do two professional football clubs, both in the top tier of their respective countries. If I was going to get into detail... I'd be looking for McKay and Henderson, their relationship and the relationship of them to the aircraft owner. How much control did McKay have? Did his son's leaked conversation with Sala somehow exonerate him or confirm his involvement?? I'm not quoting, but from memory, young McKay offered Sala the flight and Sala had asked how much it would cost him. Young McKay said that it's free as long as he helped him score some goals. Sala responded 'we'll score lots of goals'. Was that offer and acceptance? Was that a contract in itself? McKay provides plane and travel for Sala, Sala helps young McKay score goals. Consideration for the contract was shown on both sides- the plane turned up, and Sala subsequently boarded. But how about Henderson...?

Was he the operator of this unlicensed operation? Did he organise it? Was there a pre-existing relationship of this type that could be brought to light? The relationship between McKay and Henderson will be crucial. Was it for reward? Or was this a huge anomaly? Maybe Dave Henderson told his mate McKay he was going to Nantes for the weekend, and his mate McKay told him of the huge coincidence... that he'd just organised a transfer, and asked if he could give the guy a lift on his way back in exchange for some fuel money... then... at the weekend Henderson was bed-ridden with flu but didn't want to let his mate McKay down, so he asked his other mate Ibbotson to bring Sala home because his mate McKay was relying on him. Highly doubtful, but would somewhat mitigate Henderson and McKay's involvement.


BOBERTZ:

This memorandum is in response to your inquiry regarding whether a pilot shared the common
purpose with his passengers of traveling to a canoe race thereby enabling him to share operating
expenses for a series of flights under 14 C.F.R. § 61.1 13(c).
The information you provided to us contains the following scenario. A pilot, who holds an
airline transport pilot (ATP) certificate, was asked to fly members of a canoe club from
Honolulu, Hawaii, to Molokai, Hawaii, for a race. He agreed and arranged to use a four-seat
Cessna 172 airplane owned by a person who "is also friends with the Canoe Club." The pilot
would fly three club members to the race site, return without passengers, and then pick up
another three passengers. These flights would be repeated until the entire team was transported
to the race site. The airplane's owner and the pilot discussed the airplane's operating costs and
determined that each flight would cost $120-150. They also determined that the pilot and
passengers could each pay a pro rata share of each passenger-carrying flight; $100 of the cost of
each flight would be divided among the three passengers and the pilot would contribute $35.
The pilot made nine trips to transport the team to the race - four on one day, and five on the next.
The total expenses for the flights came to $1,280. To cover the expenses the canoe club paid the
pilot $900 (collected from the passengers), representing the cost of transporting the racers, and
the pilot contributed $380. The pilot states that he "knew and had socialized and paddled with
numerous club members," and contends that he had a common purpose with the canoe racers in
attending the event of "furthering the club's cultural interests, its competition record, and the
continued development of our teams." See Nov. 25, 2008 Letter to Chris 1. Collins, Manager,
Honolulu Certificate Management Office, and Oct. 4, 2008 Letter to Jon B. Murakami, Aviation
Safety Inspector, Honolulu Flight Standards District Office (both letters contained in the
materials provided).
Private pilots ate prohibited from carrying passengers for compensation or hire with certain
exceptions. See 14 c.P.R. § 61.113(a)-(d). Section 61.113(c) provides an exception to the general rule by allowing a private pilot to obtain a pro rata reimbursement from his passengers
for fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees. The FAA has consistently interpreted this
exception to require a pilot to share with his passengers a bona fide common purpose for
conducting the flight. See Legal Interpretation to Guy Mangiamele, from Rebecca B.
MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (Mar. 4, 2009); Legal Interpretation to
Peter Bunce, from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (Nov. 19,
2008); Legal Interpretation to Thomas H. Chero, from John H. Cassady, Assistant Chief
Counsel, Regulations and Enforcement Division (Dec. 26, 1985); Legal Interpretation to Bob
Von Seggem, from John L. Fitzgerald Jr., ACE-7 (Dec. 19,1977-81).
Absent a bona fide common purpose for their travel, reimbursement for the pro rata share of
operating expenses constitutes compensation and the flights would be considered a commercial
operation for which a part 119 certificate is required. See Legal Interpretation to Peter Bunce,
from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations (Nov. 19,2008).
Whether a bona fide common purpose exists depends upon the facts of the situation at hand.
See, e.g., id. (finding no common purpose when a volunteer pilot transported ill or injured
individuals to medical treatment facilities for compensation because the choice of destination
was dictated by the passenger and the pilot's only purpose was to provide transportation to the
passenger); Legal Interpretation to Thomas H. Chero, from John H. Cassady, Assistant Chief
Counsel, Regulations and Enforcement Division (Dec. 26, 1985) (finding no common purpose if
the pilot is transporting passengers to a destination where he has no particular business to
conduct).
The pilot in this scenario claims that he shared a common purpose with his passengers because
the flights were to further the canoe club's cultural interests, its competition record, and the
continued development of its teams. The pilot was asked to fly the team to the race by another
pilot who previously transported team members. There is nothing to suggest that the pilot
intended to attend the race, or to fly to the race site, for any reason other than to transport the
team. Furthermore, the pilot needed to conduct a total of nine flights in order to transport the
entire team.
Based on these facts, it is clear that the team dictated the destination and the flights were
conducted with the purpose of transporting the team to the race. Because the purpose of the
flights was to transport the team members from Honolulu to the race site, the § 61.113( c)
exception does not apply, and the pilot is prohibited from receiving compensation in the form of
the passengers' pro rata share of the operating costs of the flights. See 14 C.F.R. § 61.113.
Assuming, however, that the pilot planned to attend the race and conducted the flights with this
purpose, his bona fide common purpose with his passengers for making the trip would only
extend to the first flight to the race site. This is because following this flight he would be at his
destination and able to attend the race. If the pilot had carried any passengers from the race back
to Honolulu, then the bona fide common purpose would also extend to the one flight the pilot
needed to conduct in order to return home. Subsequent flights would not be necessary for
achieving his purpose of attending the race and would therefore be solely for the purposes of
transporting the team.

With respect to conducting the flights for compensation, your request notes that the pilot, who
holds an ATP certificate, argues that any time logged on these flights should not count as
compensation because building general aviation flying time in a Cessna 172 does not advance his
career. Generally, accrual of flight time is compensation and the FAA does not enter into a case-
by-case analysis to determine whether the logging of flight time is of value to a particular pilot.
Legal Interpretation to John W. Harrington, from Donald Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel (Oct.
23, 1997) [1997-23]. Moreover, this argument does not alter the fact that, as discussed above,
the pilot received compensation for the flights from the canoe club members by accepting their
pro rata share of the cost of the flights.
Second, as noted above, the pilot holds an ATP certificate which raises the issue of whether the
pilot could have conducted these flights for compensation or hire. One privilege conferred upon
ATP certificate holders is the ability to act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying persons
or property for compensation or hire. See 14 C.F.R. § 61. 167(a), 61. 133(a)(1). However, in
order to conduct such operations, the ATP certificate holder must also obtain a part 119
operating certificate when operating a civil aircraft as a commercial operator in air commerce.
See 14 C.F.R. § 119.1 (a)( 1). A commercial operator is a "person who, for compensation or hire,
engages in the carriage by aircraft in air commerce of persons or property." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. Air
commerce is defined as "interstate, overseas, or foreign air commerce ... or any operation or
navigation of aircraft within the limits of any Federal airway or any operation or navigation of
aircraft which directly affects, or which may endanger safety in, interstate, overseas, or foreign
air commerce." Id.
Here, the pilot received compensation from the canoe club members he transported to the race.
See Legal Interpretation to Peter Bunce, from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel
for Regulations (Nov. 19, 2008) (noting that a pro rata share of operating expenses is
compensation). The flights were also conducted in air commerce; the fact that the flights were
conducted solely within the state of Hawaii does not except them from the FAA's oversight. See
Legal Interpretation to Allan W. Read, from John H. Cassady, Assistant Chief Counsel (March
14, 1985) [1985-4] (noting that the FAA's authority has been broadly construed to extend to
intrastate flights because of their safety impact on interstate air commerce); Administrator v.
Clifford 0. Barrows, NTSB Order No. EA-3061 (Jan. 3, 1990); Administrator v. Michael Dan
Ferguson, NTSB Order No. EA-1822 (Aug. 13, 1982); Administrator v. Mira Slovak, NTSB
Order No. EA-587 (June 5, 1974). Accordingly, the pilot would need a part 119 air operator
certificate to conduct these flights for compensation or hire.
This response was prepared by Dean Griffith, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the Office
of the Chief Counsel, and was coordinated with the General Aviation and Commercial Division
of Flight Standards Service. Please contact us at (202) 267-3073 if we can be of further
assistance.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 03:31
  #1316 (permalink)  
 
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As per the regulations found on the flissair website.

Complex aircraft cannot be used on cost sharing flights.
Cost sharing may only be used up to a maximum of 6 people.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 03:51
  #1317 (permalink)  
 
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I have found N264DB on an enthusiasts list at Antwerp on December 8th, 2015. Operator is given as Cool Flourish Ltd.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 04:52
  #1318 (permalink)  
 
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MALIBU OWNERS NAMED

The WalesOnLine website (owned by Trinity Mirror Group Newspapers) has revealed more information about the ownership of the Piper Malibu. The news source says :-
"Investigators probing the plane crash that killed Cardiff City footballer Emiliano Sala are fully aware of who actually owned the aircraft.The ownership of the Piper Malibu N264DB plane has been the source of much speculation and mystery since it crashed into the English Channel on the night of January 21.

Now, Southern Aircraft Consultancy Inc, a British-based Trustee firm who registered the aircraft with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in the USA, have issued a detailed statement for the first time.

The Norfolk-based company offers non-US citizens the ability to legally register their aircraft in the US. It then holds the plane in trust for the real owner, and promises never to pass on information about the owners to the public. The name of the actual owners of the Piper Malibu are not available on the FAA website.Until now, Southern Aircraft have refused to speak out in detail. But, in a statement to WalesOnline, they revealed more about the role they perform and said they had given details of the real owners to the Air Accident Investigation Branch. The issue of ownership may be central to establishing who is liable for the costs Cardiff City could yet have to bear amid their dispute over the £15m transfer fee with Nantes . WalesOnline understands the club are demanding answers to this question before deciding how to proceed.

A spokesperson for Southern Aircraft Consultancy said:-

: "Recent press reports have stated that ownership information has been removed from the FAA records, in order to occlude ownership details. We can categorically state that this is incorrect. As a business, we would never even consider doing this, even if it were requested by a client (which it has not been, in this case). No records or details have been removed from anywhere in relation to this aircraft. In fact, it is not possible to remove any such documentation from the FAA records, even if the aircraft owners had requested it (which they have not). "As an organisation, we do not exist to 'hide' aircraft ownership details. We exist simply to assist people with registering their aircraft on the FAA register. The comprehensive ownership details of aircraft registered in Trust - including details of any and all previous ownership transfers whilst on the FAA register - are part of the formal aircraft record at the FAA, as with any other aircraft registration (whether registered by a Trustee or not). To reiterate, Southern Aircraft Consultancy are the Trustee only for the aircraft, which is owned and operated by another party. Said party is responsible for the day to day operation of the aircraft as well as its maintenance. By law, as with any other company who holds client details, we cannot simply release those details to anyone that asks for them. We can only release them to those who have a legal right to it (for example, the AAIB, with whom we have been liaising regularly and to whom we provided all of the information that we hold on the aircraft and the owners immediately after being notified that it was missing).It would be inappropriate to comment further at this point, but again we extend our condolences to the families of those involved in the accident."

Last edited by korrol; 12th Feb 2019 at 08:25. Reason: Improve layout and legibility
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 07:46
  #1319 (permalink)  
 
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Coincidentally in the March edition of Pilot magazine the ILAFT column tells the story of a Piper Malibu flight from Rotterdam to the UK with a commercial pilot in the left seat and an experienced instrument rated pilot with 1,500 hours in the right hand seat. Having descended into the UK they levelled off at 2,400 feet in IMC conditions using the autopilot but forgot to add power and very nearly stalled. The non-professional pilot in the right hand seat realised and added power a few knots above flap up stall speed having suddenly noticed the ASI unwinding rapidly. That is always a trap when descending and using an autopilot for heading and altitude capture but manual throttle. Because the autopilot is engaged it can give a false sense that all is under control.

There are several possibilities for what happened to Sala’s plane but the above error is certainly a possible candidate aided by ice distraction and night IMC.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 08:58
  #1320 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding the "registration"of the aircraft then there is another situation that I have not seen commented on.
US ownership of anything is considered property tax which varies from State to State and is usually an annual tax and can be quite expensive.
There are a few states that do not have property tax, Delaware and Nevada used be the two that I was familiar with.
You will find that the registered US address for companies that provide this registration "facility" are registered in one of these states.

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