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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 27th Jan 2019, 15:47
  #701 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
Well they make their intentions clear

Jbmf Air Ltd

Aircraft Rental Leasing And Charter Services in Swindon View others nearby
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South Marston Industrial Estate
Wiltshire Sn3 4Tn
Swindon
Wiltshire
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And the same Mark Farmer of the above 'Aircraft Charter' company (and reputed part owner of the Eclipse 500, N531EA that flew Sala) is also a director of an aviation charity too. Unfortunate.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 15:48
  #702 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronus View Post
Now here is a reliable report on the prevailing wx conditions. It does go some distance to raise doubts over the speculation on icing and introduces more credence on the possibility of mechanical malfunction and failure.
Yes I do agree with most of the sentiment and outrage expressed over the matter of cowboy operations, grey charters, illegal flying, etc., nevertheless my real interest lies in the actual cause(s) of this accident. In that respect, unless the wreckage is recovered from the sea bed, the truth is most unlikely to come to light. Charts of the area show relatively shallow sea bed depths, so it should not be a difficult task to locate the wreckage. The main issue is who might be willing to foot the bill. Particularly given that this accident involved a N reg private aircraft with two on board. Of all the interested parties involved, I can only think the aircraft insurers may be the most likely to do so, within the terms of the liability cover under the policy.
I wasn't trying to imply that there wasn't icing about, as there most certainly was. Only that I wasn't in it for long. It wasn't freezing drizzle or rain. Prolonged flight at 5000' however.....
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 15:52
  #703 (permalink)  
 
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Truthseeker, you seem to be deliberate in using the word charter. Do you know that these were charters and not the aircraft being lent without financial reward?
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 15:56
  #704 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1 View Post

On the 19th N531EA was on a charter from Biggin Hill (0801 GMT) to Paris Le Bourget (0951 CET) so not available for Sala to use, N531EA stayed in Paris Le Bourget until 1601 CET on the 21st before departing back to Biggin Hill with an arrival time of 1550 GMT.

N531EA is NOT ON AN AOC - it cannot be 'Chartered' It is a privately owned/registered aircraft on the FAA N-register. It is not a PART-135 aircraft and even if it was, if it's flipping around all over Europe for hire and reward as a European-based and operated, but US-registered jet, that's still illegal - cabotage, freedoms of the air etc. etc.

This is unearthing a heap of trouble. I do hope the NTSB and the AAIB, the CAA and DGAC are watching all this.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:05
  #705 (permalink)  
 
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N531EA could be being used for illegal public transport but we don’t know that. It could be that the owners are very generous and have a lot of mates that they fly around for free.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:13
  #706 (permalink)  
 
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On offer:

1. A flight to France from England, single engine - any day, date, time, overnight, departure point, destination you require, IFR or VFR.

also on offer;

2. A flight to France from England, single engine - any day, date, time, overnight, departure point, destination you require, IFR or VFR.


One is Wingly (or facebook offer, flyer on the pub notice board, et all), the other is an illegal charter - which one is which ?????


That's the problem, the stable door is now open and the public do not have a clue what they are getting themselves into (I'm not being disrespectful). Even if you can find the line between a cost sharing flight and an illegal charter the temptation to over step is massive - because there is no oversight and 'what's the difference anyway' might be the attitude. However, the deviation from legal (safe, sensible) will continue to get bigger until we have significant, professional and emotional moments, one of which we "might" have had this week.

Like most things regarding EASA / EU I often think, "who dreamt that rule up" and "how do I get to speak to them to tell them they're nuts" - a few years ago I saw first hand what goes on with rule changes in EASA to the business benefit of those who effect/propose them. I was disgusted.

Who woke up one morning and thought, let's allow PPLs with 60-70 hours total time, 3 hours on type, who only have to chip in 1 euro cent or 1p, offer charter flights (that's what they are !!!) across international boundaries and large areas of water. WHO THOUGHT THAT WAS ACCEPTABLE? WHO DREAMT THIS UP? WHO PUSHED THIS THROUGH? WHO SIGNED IT OFF ? IT'S THE EU - WE'LL NEVER KNOW !!

By law EASA has to do an economic impact study on the effect of their rule making - there can be few people in aviation that could not have told them the effect of this rule change on AOCs, flying clubs etc. The "excuse" for this rule making, from the UK side at least, was to "stimulate" GA activity .... doh ..... did they ask anyone in the GA business community???

This rule making is fundamentally flawed - it was set out "categorically" as EQUAL cost sharing between friends and fellow pilots (copies available) - I did not respond to the associated consultation because I did not have a problem with that - as soon as the law was passed we then found ourselves in the present situation with some regulators doing a complete 180 in full support of the current situation - "it's legal" we were told, and as we all know, the second bit of that phrase is, "but that doesn't mean it's safe". It should be remembered that these cost sharing companies effectively employ the PPLs - n.b. if PPLs do not fly the flights and honour the gift vouchers sold by these companies then they have no business - profit out of the flight ? "Commercial pressure" on 60-70 hour PPLs ???

The genie needs to be put back in the bottle - this needs a legal challenge, a judicial review - if the EU allows that kind of thing !!!??!!
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:15
  #707 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Avioactive View Post
N531EA is NOT ON AN AOC - it cannot be 'Chartered' It is a privately owned/registered aircraft on the FAA N-register. It is not a PART-135 aircraft and even if it was, if it's flipping around all over Europe for hire and reward as a European-based and operated, but US-registered jet, that's still illegal - cabotage, freedoms of the air etc. etc.

This is unearthing a heap of trouble. I do hope the NTSB and the AAIB, the CAA and DGAC are watching all this.
7th Freedom rights between the countries used for departure and arrival required
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:18
  #708 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Chronus View Post
unless the wreckage is recovered from the sea bed, the truth is most unlikely to come to light. .
Out of curiosity, how ? no CVR , no FDR, and afaik ( but stand to be corrected) the memory on a Garmin is unlikely to be readable after a week in salt water .

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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:18
  #709 (permalink)  
 
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That will be Jason Bannister who runs a well known and much advertised oak furniture business then
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:19
  #710 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
So
Lets compare professions:
Pilots and Doctors
This poor footballer was in for some minor surgery, expecting a Surgeon.?
He got a pipe fitter with a dull knife.
Tragic
As someone with a foot in both camps, I do find it somewhat ironic that the medical profession is frequently exhorted to learn safety lessons from the aviation sector (such as the recognition of the importance of Human Factors, and the existence of CHIRP, in particular). Of course, a licence to practice medicine does not include a category equivalent to the PPL (or LAPL or NPL, whatever they might be), so a comparison with the commercial aviation industry is altogether more appropriate, the excellent CHIRP GA Feedback notwithstanding.

The General Medical Council (equivalent to the CAA, I guess - certainly in terms of its level of fees!) maintains both a General Register and Specialist Register (overseeing the equivalents of CPL, IR, ATPL and Type Ratings, I guess - but not requiring regular Medical Certificates, curiously). As in aviation, however, there are always the outliers (frauds with bogus qualifications, and those who push the envelope of their licences, such as GPs offering a sideline in minor cosmetic surgery) but, by and large, the SLF equivalent can be pretty confident that an NHS medical practitioner is, at least, competent. A practitioner wishing to work in the private sector will find it exceedingly difficult to do so without phenomenally expensive medico-legal insurance cover.

Meanwhile, the aviation sector is awash with “grey ops”, and has been for as long as I can remember. As one of the first cohorts of wannabee FIs to need a BCPL for a role that previously, and subsequently, demanded only a PPL, I was not best pleased initially, but quickly came to realise how much better a pilot, and therefore an instructor, this additional knowledge and experience made me; I subsequently went on to gain a CPR/IR, purely for reasons of self-satisfaction.

As such, I was not infrequently approached to act as front-seat freight on single-pilot charters, in order to give the illusion of redundancy to the SLF, who tended to expect two bodies up front. Rarely was I type-rated on the aircraft concerned; sometimes, I’d never even have set eyes upon one, and was able to contribute little more to the flight than changing the squawk. It was fun when I was younger, although I did rapidly became bored with hanging around in LSGG, Frankfurt or wherever until the SLF had concluded whatever business was so important as to preclude a commercial flight. My final such trip was a scud-running VFR flight home from Brussels, when even sensible pigeons had grounded themselves voluntarily. No surgeon would have risked his licence, let alone his life, when the evidence base clearly demonstrated the degree of risk involved. That must have been around 30 years ago now; thereafter, whilst I’ve relinquished the left-hand seat to many a low-hours student, admittedly in the knowledge that I could always assume control myself if necessary, I have never again done so to a “professional” with whose qualifications and experience I was not personally familiar.

That the circumstances which, in 2019, have led to the death of an individual of great footballing talent, but with no appreciation of the shortcomings of aviation regulation and oversight, have been allowed to continue unchecked, is, in my view, wholly disgraceful.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:24
  #711 (permalink)  
 
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The picture of N531EA with names under the windows is old, the names were removed a while back & it now has Channel Jets on the fuselage.



The Chartered reference is supposition as the aircraft is owned by Jason Bannister & Mark Farmer who operate JBMF Air which operates as an Air Charter company.

Jason Bannister does ( I believe) have an investment in Burnley FC so there is possibly a loose connection to the McKay's & Football.

I am now losing the thread because I am connected to Aviation, previously connected to Football & previously rubbed shoulders with a few of the names in this melee so I am advised to sit back & await the conclusions.

Last edited by TRUTHSEEKER1; 27th Jan 2019 at 16:36.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:25
  #712 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
Well they make their intentions clear

Jbmf Air Ltd

Aircraft Rental Leasing And Charter Services in Swindon View others nearby
Add review
South Marston Industrial Estate
Wiltshire Sn3 4Tn
Swindon
Wiltshire
SN3 4TN
Well seeing as that's the exact same address as Oak Furniture Land, one can assume that's the same Jason Bannister who's boss/founder/owner of Oak Furniture land and key investor/sponsor of Burnley Football Club - so there's a football connection there, maybe, being in the footy business, Jason Bannister lent his private jet to Sala (or Sala's agent) for free.......I'll let others come to their own conclusions
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:31
  #713 (permalink)  
 
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So, the Sala Eclipse 500 was procured through Channel Jets then - https://www.channeljets.com/private-charter-service/

Problem is, where Channel Jets have a Guernsey based 2-REG operation (do they have a Guernsey AOC already?) what were they doing using an N-Reg aircraft (N531EA) on their AOC (assuming they have a valid Guernsey AOC). Does the Guernsey register allow for the substitution of any old privately-owned aircraft on any register onto one of their 2-REG AOC operations?
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:36
  #714 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cambridge172 View Post
So, the Sala Eclipse 500 was procured through Channel Jets then - https://www.channeljets.com/private-charter-service/

Problem is, where Channel Jets have a Guernsey based 2-REG operation (do they have a Guernsey AOC already?) what were they doing using an N-Reg aircraft (N531EA) on their AOC (assuming they have a valid Guernsey AOC). Does the Guernsey register allow for the substitution of any old privately-owned aircraft on any register onto one of their 2-REG AOC operations?
With you on this - still cant see how you set yourself up with an N reg jet on an AOC in the UK AND advertise your business as aircraft charter ????
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:48
  #715 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by red9 View Post
With you on this - still cant see how you set yourself up with an N reg jet on an AOC in the UK AND advertise your business as aircraft charter ????
Channel Jets got their Guernsey AOC last summer (the sixth AOC issued by the Guernsey authorities) so they can legitimately charter out a 2-REG registered Eclipse 500. However, it is doubtful that they could charter out a borrowed/substitute N-registered Eclipse off the back of their Guernsey AOC. If it transpires that they can just substitute any old FAA or EASA-registered aircraft onto the AOC, then that is very enlightening. In a post-Brexit world, I can see every UK AOC-holder in the country swapping over to the Guernsey register so they have this extraordinary flexibility - assuming they get over the Part-TCO approval issues allowing them to be able to fly in any UK/EU jurisdiction thereafter.

However, unless someone can confirm the Guernsey rules on this, I seriously doubt that N-Reg Eclipse coud have been legitimately chartered to Sala (or his agent), even if the 'Operator' for that trip has a valid AOC, which it appears they do. Are Mark Farmer and Jason Bannister (supposed owners of N531EA) therefore leasing their Eclipse to Channel Jets, or was this a one-off rental?
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:48
  #716 (permalink)  
 
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N531EA is a red herring...
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:56
  #717 (permalink)  
 
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Well now you can throw away your AOCs, you don’t need them any more.

According to Forbes.

The scenario is this: An important client of your company calls and says "We have ridden on your jet before, and now we urgently have to get to a team out to a site where there has been an accident, and we would like to use your aircraft to get us there tonight instead of waiting for the airlines; we shall pay for the flight, can we use your jet and go?"

Of course you want to help out a valuable client that is in dire need, especially as you feel that it will further cement your relationship with them, but after a call to your legal department you are now unsure whether you can agree to your clients urgent request.


Your ‘legal eagles’ are happy about the liability issues being ‘no-problem.’ This is because you carry more insurance than you really need because of the regularity in which clients and other non-employees are flown on your aircraft. Also even though the trip will be at the request of another, your company will be in complete operational control of the aircraft and therefore it is the same as you and your own people being on board. The issue that bothers your legal team is the assertion by the client that ‘we (he) will pay for the flight.’ So what is the issue of payment that they are citing here? Well, you operate your aircraft under cfr 14, FAR part 91 operating rules. You do not have an Air Operators Certificate (AOC) under part 135 and therefore you cannot charge the client for the flight as you will be breaking the law.

Well actually ‘Au contraire mon amis’, because you can legally charge for the use of your aircraft by another person or entity as long as you write a very simple ‘Time Sharing Agreement’ and then refer to the following provisions in the Code of Federal Regulations (cfr) Title 14: Aeronautics and Space, Part 91 - General Operating Flight Rules, Subpart F - Large and Turbine Powered Multiengine Airplanes and Fractional Ownership Program Aircraft, Rule Number 501, sub-paragraph C (1), which states:





A time sharing agreement means an arrangement whereby a person leases his airplane with flight crew to another person, and no charge is made for the flights conducted under that arrangement other than those specified in paragraph (d) of this section.... Which further states ....(d) The following may be charged, as expenses of a specific flight, for transportation as authorized by paragraphs (b) (3) and (7) and (c)(1) of this section:

(1) Fuel, oil, lubricants, and other additives.

(2) Travel expenses of the crew, including food, lodging, and ground transportation.

(3) Hangar and tie-down costs away from the aircraft's base of operation.

(4) Insurance obtained for the specific flight.

(5) Landing fees, airport taxes, and similar assessments.

(6) Customs, foreign permit, and similar fees directly related to the flight.

(7) In flight food and beverages.

(8) Passenger ground transportation.

(9) Flight planning and weather contract services.

(10) An additional charge equal to 100 percent of the expenses listed in paragraph (d)(1) of this section.

Now you know for certain and you can make the happy call to your client.


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Old 27th Jan 2019, 16:57
  #718 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cambridge172 View Post
So, the Sala Eclipse 500 was procured through Channel Jets then - https://www.channeljets.com/private-charter-service/

Problem is, where Channel Jets have a Guernsey based 2-REG operation (do they have a Guernsey AOC already?) what were they doing using an N-Reg aircraft (N531EA) on their AOC (assuming they have a valid Guernsey AOC). Does the Guernsey register allow for the substitution of any old privately-owned aircraft on any register onto one of their 2-REG AOC operations?
You will notice that on the ChannelJets website it shows N843TE (which is identical to N531EA) & is another one that had Bruce Dickinson's name under the window once but is now resprayed blue & white so it does look like Channel Jets are using FAA registered Eclipse's on Charters from Guernsey so maybe David Hayman from Aeris needs to be consulted on this?



.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 17:18
  #719 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Romaro View Post
Channel Jets got their Guernsey AOC last summer (the sixth AOC issued by the Guernsey authorities) so they can legitimately charter out a 2-REG registered Eclipse 500. However, it is doubtful that they could charter out a borrowed/substitute N-registered Eclipse off the back of their Guernsey AOC. If it transpires that they can just substitute any old FAA or EASA-registered aircraft onto the AOC, then that is very enlightening. In a post-Brexit world, I can see every UK AOC-holder in the country swapping over to the Guernsey register so they have this extraordinary flexibility - assuming they get over the Part-TCO approval issues allowing them to be able to fly in any UK/EU jurisdiction thereafter.
However, unless someone can confirm the Guernsey rules on this, I seriously doubt that N-Reg Eclipse coud have been legitimately chartered to Sala (or his agent), even if the 'Operator' for that trip has a valid AOC, which it appears they do. Are Mark Farmer and Jason Bannister (supposed owners of N531EA) therefore leasing their Eclipse to Channel Jets, or was this a one-off rental?
With
Having Channel Jets name & logo emblazoned on the fuselage of N531EA & N843TE I would guess that they aren't being used as One Off Charters in the true sense of the word, however each different client is a ' one off ' in legal terms.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 17:39
  #720 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=BigFrank;10371929]Would you say that the Cork Accident followed the above trope?

I only said that they are put in place, I didn't opine as to whether they are followed by all but professional pilots.
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