Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,215
Originally Posted by rotorspeed
I suspect there are a number of people who have substantial responsibility for this reckless flight that should never have happened. Whoever actually suggested and promoted this flight to Sala has the most responsibility. I suspect Sala was a young guy wishing to please in a new environment at Cardiff with minimal knowledge of general aviation. He would probably have just trusted those that recommended this flight and crossed his fingers.
Originally Posted by rotorspeed
We all know questioning such suggestions can be seen as insulting and can be awkward to do - certainly to press doubts very far. This flight was patently so stupid with so many blindingly obvious high risk factors - old plane, single engine, piston engine, night, winter, fairly poor weather, across extensive water, virtually unsurvivably cold water, poorly qualified pilot, inadequately competent pilot, single pilot. And no doubt more.
Looking at the available data from the time of departure, I would have departed as well, only difference I would have gone IFR high not low.
The weather was not too bad to abort in advance and the aircraft, if maintained well, quite capable for that mission.
Originally Posted by rotorspeed
Whoever was the de facto owner/controlling mind of this plane must surely have known of the proposed flight. And should have said it was not suitable and stopped it. Anyone introducing the flight to Sala should not have done so without either having sufficient knowledge or asking someone that did have. Fail again. And the pilot should have had far more responsibility and said the risk factors were far too high to be inflicted on an unwitting, vulnerable passenger. And not accepted the flight. I find it hard to believe Cardiff FC have no responsibility either - they should have delved into Sala's travel arrangements more than they did and taken some advice. Which could have been as simple as Googling "Cardiff aircraft charter" which would have brought up local Dragon Fly amongst others, and simply called them for advice, even if they had no interest in chartering a private jet. Had they sought such advice, Sala would surely not have been in the fateful flight.
Clearly there were significant motivating factors for poor Sala to end up on a totally obviously inappropriate flight which cost him his life. No doubt these will come out in the investigation.
Clearly there were significant motivating factors for poor Sala to end up on a totally obviously inappropriate flight which cost him his life. No doubt these will come out in the investigation.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 878
Hello!
What you write, jumpseater, is very true.
Every commercial operator must issue a ticket to every passenger, not only within the EU, but in every country that operates under basic ICAO standards. This must no longer necessarily be a piece of paper as in the old days, but can be electronic instead. And it must clearly point to the terms&conditions, the passenger rights and a few more things. Being issued such a ticket is often the only indication to a passenger that he is going to fly on a state-supervised commercial flight.
So even if my employer, manamegent, club or whoever else arranges the flight for me, I as passenger should always ask to see my ticket. That is actually the only thing one can do to verify that they booked me on a legitimate flight. Of course upon boarding one could ask the pilot to display the AOC (an officially stamped copy has to be carried on board all the time) and his license, but not many passengers even know about the existence of such documents,
Let's hope that this tragic accident increases the awareness of the general public towards these issues.
What you write, jumpseater, is very true.
Originally Posted by jumpseater
A bit of this is caveat emptor, buyer beware, but I suggest the ‘pedestal’ that aviation sits on makes due diligence checks less likely, and as Eu asks, where does the layman start, and with what questions.
So even if my employer, manamegent, club or whoever else arranges the flight for me, I as passenger should always ask to see my ticket. That is actually the only thing one can do to verify that they booked me on a legitimate flight. Of course upon boarding one could ask the pilot to display the AOC (an officially stamped copy has to be carried on board all the time) and his license, but not many passengers even know about the existence of such documents,
Let's hope that this tragic accident increases the awareness of the general public towards these issues.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,215
Originally Posted by what next
Every commercial operator must issue a ticket to every passenger, not only within the EU, but in every country that operates under basic ICAO standards. This must no longer necessarily be a piece of paper as in the old days, but can be electronic instead. And it must clearly point to the terms&conditions, the passenger rights and a few more things. Being issued such a ticket is often the only indication to a passenger that he is going to fly on a state-supervised commercial flight.
So even if my employer, manamegent, club or whoever else arranges the flight for me, I as passenger should always ask to see my ticket. That is actually the only thing one can do to verify that they booked me on a legitimate flight. Of course upon boarding one could ask the pilot to display the AOC (an officially stamped copy has to be carried on board all the time) and his license, but not many passengers even know about the existence of such documents,
Let's hope that this tragic accident increases the awareness of the general public towards these issues.
So even if my employer, manamegent, club or whoever else arranges the flight for me, I as passenger should always ask to see my ticket. That is actually the only thing one can do to verify that they booked me on a legitimate flight. Of course upon boarding one could ask the pilot to display the AOC (an officially stamped copy has to be carried on board all the time) and his license, but not many passengers even know about the existence of such documents,
Let's hope that this tragic accident increases the awareness of the general public towards these issues.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 1,190
Originally Posted by Eutychus
I was referring to this statement which does not appear accurate, possibly because of the linked article not being in the poster's native language:
PDR
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: North Wales
Posts: 2
We know that the pilot was Dave Ibbotson and it is reported he has a PPL and more than likely should not have been flying the footballer.RIP. The Pilot that appeared in the BBC video 'My life as a ferry pilot' and shows the a/c N264DB is David Henderson who was passport checked to also fly th plane back to Cardiff. Why did he not get on the plane ?
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Grand Turk
Age: 56
Posts: 64
Passenger perspective
Every passenger places their trust in the pilots and the the machinery as a necessary part of flying. However, many passengers are frequent flyers or have pilot experience. Rational concerns and doubts should not be disregarded by pilots or passengers. I frequently fly as a passenger in small aircraft (several times a week). I avoid flying in marginal conditions and tend to check the weather particularly when flying with family. Probably I am overly cautious and do not represent the majority of the flying public.
As an example, I chose to take a short 20 min flight under marginal conditions because I had doctor's appointment. As it turned out, the flight took 1hr and 20mins because there was severe weather over all available airports and I missed my appointment anyway. There were no alternates within range and the only other option was to ditch. In hindsight I would not have taken the flight. The only choice was to land in dangerous conditions without much fuel left. I wanted to make my doctor's appointment and the pilots wanted to make their schedule. In hindsight I think that we would have all waited until the thunderstorm activity had subsided. It was an unnecessary risk.
I definitely would have not allowed my family to have flown on that flight. Luck was on our side that day, but the risk could have been avoided by ignoring the urges to fly. We must recognize that the urges to get to were you are going sometimes cloud judgment. I suspect that it may be possible to improve regulations to avoid some of those risks and make the decision not to fly more objective. Inevitably the flight crew has the greatest responsibility to avoid unnecessary risks.
It seems that the choice to fly Sala was questionable at the very best. No doubt there will be many factors taken into consideration in the investigation.
As an example, I chose to take a short 20 min flight under marginal conditions because I had doctor's appointment. As it turned out, the flight took 1hr and 20mins because there was severe weather over all available airports and I missed my appointment anyway. There were no alternates within range and the only other option was to ditch. In hindsight I would not have taken the flight. The only choice was to land in dangerous conditions without much fuel left. I wanted to make my doctor's appointment and the pilots wanted to make their schedule. In hindsight I think that we would have all waited until the thunderstorm activity had subsided. It was an unnecessary risk.
I definitely would have not allowed my family to have flown on that flight. Luck was on our side that day, but the risk could have been avoided by ignoring the urges to fly. We must recognize that the urges to get to were you are going sometimes cloud judgment. I suspect that it may be possible to improve regulations to avoid some of those risks and make the decision not to fly more objective. Inevitably the flight crew has the greatest responsibility to avoid unnecessary risks.
It seems that the choice to fly Sala was questionable at the very best. No doubt there will be many factors taken into consideration in the investigation.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 513
Well Dave Henderson for one could help if he wanted to. He has flown this aircraft for the McKays, that has been confirmed by them. He must know who the owner is because he did a very public interview from the aircraft.
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Staffordshire
Posts: 2
From the X-Files
Emiliano Sala search called off for the day as authorities find no trace of missing plane. The search began in the English Channel around the island on Tuesday and went on for two days before getting called off on Thursday. Guernsey Police tweeted: "After an intensive search using multiple aircraft and one lifeboat over the last nine hours, we have found no trace of the missing plane."
The aircraft, passenger and crew are therefore missing until physical evidence emerges to otherwise determine their exact whereabouts. Whilst the known facts, weather conditions, aircraft type, passenger, pilot etc. have been debated across this thread, there are historic references to unexplained sightings of 'unidentified flying objects' in the Channel Islands area filed by commercial pilots, in particular in and around the last known position of N264DB before vanishing from Jersey radar. If you're interested in reading the reports etc. (which appear to be credible) search Wikipedia 'Alderney UFO sighting'.
The aircraft, passenger and crew are therefore missing until physical evidence emerges to otherwise determine their exact whereabouts. Whilst the known facts, weather conditions, aircraft type, passenger, pilot etc. have been debated across this thread, there are historic references to unexplained sightings of 'unidentified flying objects' in the Channel Islands area filed by commercial pilots, in particular in and around the last known position of N264DB before vanishing from Jersey radar. If you're interested in reading the reports etc. (which appear to be credible) search Wikipedia 'Alderney UFO sighting'.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,085
A lot of moving parts but which bit is causing people to throw their arms up in horror? Yes you can pick a route through the regulations about the complex nature [with reference to rating] of the aircraft, its N registration, the PPL and cost sharing flights. Yet that seems more effect than cause of the accident.
Many sat in the peanut gallery have been waiting for the potential to say "I told you so" about this type of flight yet very recently the CAA clarified amongst other things that advertising the availability of such flights were not a problem. So I say again whilst we may discuss many points the revenue streams seem a moot point as far as it relates to the aircraft ending in the sea.
As to awareness one might struggle to understand how anyone might think that arranging ones international travel via a facebook page without any other due diligence [making a huge assumption that this is what happened here] then I think you get what you pay for, or perhaps not in this case. For other premiership football players I would highlight that companies such as NetJets exist for your private flying needs.
Many sat in the peanut gallery have been waiting for the potential to say "I told you so" about this type of flight yet very recently the CAA clarified amongst other things that advertising the availability of such flights were not a problem. So I say again whilst we may discuss many points the revenue streams seem a moot point as far as it relates to the aircraft ending in the sea.
As to awareness one might struggle to understand how anyone might think that arranging ones international travel via a facebook page without any other due diligence [making a huge assumption that this is what happened here] then I think you get what you pay for, or perhaps not in this case. For other premiership football players I would highlight that companies such as NetJets exist for your private flying needs.
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 29
the second pilot has been named on the internet as Dave Henderson, indeed for a time the media posted him as missing with the aircraft. However, Dave has unequivocally stated that he was not there.
It would be interesting to hear why he got so close to boarding the aircraft but changed his mind.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 513
Of all the possible scenarios, the one that this was a plane share arranged over the internet is the most unlikely. The possibilities range from this effectively being someone’s corporate flight department that would use the aircraft to expedite business transactions but made a very poor recruitment choice to this being an illegal charter operation with pilots recruited off the internet at the lowest possible cost. The investigation will identify where between those two points the truth lies.
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Guernsey
Posts: 4
Spot on. as a non-pilot I would get in a non-airline plane assuming that the pilot was suitably qualified, and that the pilot also didn't want to die and thus wouldn't take unecessary risks either.
I bet Sala was simply a 'pawn' in this game - he'll have simply called his agent and said 'can you get me from Cardiff to Nantes and back on these dates' and his agent will have said 'no problem, just turn up at these points at these times with your passport and try not to be too hungover'. Any 'cost' may have come out of the agent's fees, or may have come from Sala direct, or a club expense account, I have no idea. Money may not have changed hands, it may have been favours such as an executive box or tickets for a game.
I bet Sala was simply a 'pawn' in this game - he'll have simply called his agent and said 'can you get me from Cardiff to Nantes and back on these dates' and his agent will have said 'no problem, just turn up at these points at these times with your passport and try not to be too hungover'. Any 'cost' may have come out of the agent's fees, or may have come from Sala direct, or a club expense account, I have no idea. Money may not have changed hands, it may have been favours such as an executive box or tickets for a game.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Farnborough
Posts: 62
So, if as highlighted in this thread David Ibbotson, Dave Henderson and possisbly another pilot regularly flew this private, N-Reg, single-piston engined aircraft for McKay to transport footballers from A to B, occassionaly IFR, in EU airspace, one can rationally assume that payment was involved between the parties for services rendered. There's no great 'footballer air transport service charity' anyone's aware of here. In multiple respects this is simply illegal. Which authorities though follow up with prosecutions/investigations and who takes the lead? The US FAA, the UK CAA, the French DGAC, the Channel Islands and/or UK Police, the French Police? Several interested insurance companies and or their legal representatives. Who takes the lead? How does responsibility rest between the actual/beneficial owner of the aircraft (not the owner trustee), the possible lessee/lessor relationship, the pilots, any middleman (quasi-broker) offering access to the aircraft, the guy that 'booked' it and paid for it?
Lots and lots of lessons will be learnt and a lot of that won't be new. But who is in charge?
Lots and lots of lessons will be learnt and a lot of that won't be new. But who is in charge?
Last edited by Romaro; 25th Jan 2019 at 12:48.
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Guernsey
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Originally Posted by Romaro
Lots and lots of lessons will be learn't and a lot of that won't be new. But who is in charge?
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: oop north
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by PDR1
Erm...what other kind of IR detection do you think there is??
PDR
PDR
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,215
Originally Posted by Romaro
Lots and lots of lessons will be learn't and a lot of that won't be new. But who is in charge?
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Usually firmly on the ground
Posts: 62
Originally Posted by Romaro
...flew this private, N-Reg, single-piston engined aircraft for McKay to transport footballers from A to B, occassionaly IFR, in EU airspace, one can rationally assume that payment was involved between the parties for services rendered. (...) In multiple respects this is simply illegal.
Improper certification for an N-reg aicraft?
No AOC?
No CPL?
IFR as opposed to VFR?
Payment for services rendered?
EU airspace?
...?
It's understanding how this matrix fits together to constitute something dodgy that us poor trusting users need more clarity on.
Aside from "at night/bad weather/single-engine over water/poor cruise altitude decision" issues.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 513
Originally Posted by Pittsextra
What investigation took place about the twin crashing on route to Chalgrove?
Originally Posted by Eutychus
Aggh, I thought I was just getting a handle on all this... which part of this is "simpy illegal"?
Improper certification for an N-reg aicraft?
No AOC?
No CPL?
IFR as opposed to VFR?
Payment for services rendered?
EU airspace?
...?
It's understanding how this matrix fits together to constitute something dodgy that us poor trusting users need more clarity on.
Aside from "at night/bad weather/single-engine over water/poor cruise altitude decision" issues.
Improper certification for an N-reg aicraft?
No AOC?
No CPL?
IFR as opposed to VFR?
Payment for services rendered?
EU airspace?
...?
It's understanding how this matrix fits together to constitute something dodgy that us poor trusting users need more clarity on.
Aside from "at night/bad weather/single-engine over water/poor cruise altitude decision" issues.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,085
Originally Posted by runway30
Was an investigation needed? There was nothing suggested in the accident report.
Originally Posted by runway30
Of all the possible scenarios, the one that this was a plane share arranged over the internet is the most unlikely. The possibilities range from this effectively being someone’s corporate flight department that would use the aircraft to expedite business transactions but made a very poor recruitment choice to this being an illegal charter operation with pilots recruited off the internet at the lowest possible cost. The investigation will identify where between those two points the truth lies.
