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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 25th Jan 2019, 07:46
  #381 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
Whats all this talk on insurance? Considered we talk of a young soccer player just changing club for a whopping £15m, a law engagement if started will be in the 10 years lost income compensation scheme and well in the three digit £XXXm region. So, if there was something wrong that way, the widow and family of the pilot are doomed.
It will all depend on many things as to whether the cover is valid.
It may be that insurance cover from the club has not yet started as the player seems to have not yet started training.
It maybe that anyway such cover is conditional on certain higher risk activities and sports not being carried out. I know one of such policy banning the individual from skiing.
I'm sure we will discover that in reality the pilot was deep in debt and that his estate is insolvent - so all those who think they can get any money out of the deceased pilot's estate will be told to Go Whistle Dixie/Foxtrot Oscar.

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Old 25th Jan 2019, 07:46
  #382 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flap 80 View Post
Or is this perfectly acceptable under cost sharing rules and is effectively a Wingly type of service being offered but where the potential customer has no knowledge of the Pilots ability or experience?
The European way to let grey areas slip through law enforcement and accept an economy based on 'networking', formerly known as corruption, is legendary. No, I do not find it acceptable to wreck the economical basis of trade by allowing private efforts slip underneath the legal layer agreed. What is called 'sharing society', formerly known as barter trading before the invention of money, is a huge step backwards in history. There is nothing wrong in favor among friends and neighbors, but that is always based on personal connection. Go a 'Wingly type of service' is trying to de-personalize personal relation, replacing friendship by artificial 'friendship'. It may be another world, but it is definitely not mine.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 07:51
  #383 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dsc810 View Post
It will all depend on many things as to whether the cover is valid.
It may be that insurance cover from the club has not yet started as the player seems to have not yet started training.
It maybe that anyway such cover is conditional on certain higher risk activities and sports not being carried out. I know one of such policy banning the individual from skiing.
I'm sure we will discover that in reality the pilot was deep in debt and that his estate is insolvent - so all those who think they can get any money out of the deceased pilot's estate will be told to Go Whistle Dixie/Foxtrot Oscar.
My point is, validity of cover is unimportant as the potential sums in question exceed anything I saw at such aircraft.
I suspect the reality, if ever revealed, may shock us all.

Somebody named similar a while ago on another unrelated issue 'walking accident to happen'.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 07:52
  #384 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
The European way to let grey areas slip through law enforcement and accept an economy based on 'networking', formerly known as corruption, is legendary. No, I do not find it acceptable to wreck the economical basis of trade by allowing private efforts slip underneath the legal layer agreed. What is called 'sharing society', formerly known as barter trading before the invention of money, is a huge step backwards in history. There is nothing wrong in favor among friends and neighbors, but that is always based on personal connection. Go a 'Wingly type of service' is trying to de-personalize personal relation, replacing friendship by artificial 'friendship'. It may be another world, but it is definitely not mine.
Flap 80 has absolutely nailed what I'm concerned about. However, my concern right here is not about personal preferences in terms of the ethics of business transactions but about the legal and insurance ramifications if (when?) it all goes wrong, especially given the kind of clientele one can reasonably expect to be flying in and out of the CI.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 08:15
  #385 (permalink)  
 
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I completely agree with Chickenhouses comments regarding personal connections and friends and neighbours .
in those situations a PPL may make a verbal agreement to fly someone known to them from A to B subject to vagaries of the weather.
But Facebook requests such as this specifying a requirement for an unknown person to fly on a certain date potentially bypass the decision making process of weather suitability for a PPL wishing to gain hours for minimum cost.


Last edited by Flap 80; 25th Jan 2019 at 08:16. Reason: Grammar
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 08:17
  #386 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eutychus View Post
Flap 80 has absolutely nailed what I'm concerned about. However, my concern right here is not about personal preferences in terms of the ethics of business transactions but about the legal and insurance ramifications if (when?) it all goes wrong, especially given the kind of clientele one can reasonably expect to be flying in and out of the CI.
I am absolutely with you. Given the current ethics, I say we live with an existence statement: 'We feel for certain there exists an illegal part' ?
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 08:32
  #387 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flap 80 View Post
in those situations a PPL may make a verbal agreement to fly someone known to them from A to B subject to vagaries of the weather.
But Facebook requests such as this specifying a requirement for an unknown person to fly on a certain date potentially bypass the decision making process of weather suitability for a PPL wishing to gain hours for minimum cost.


Thanks, another well-put and insightful point as it relates to my experience.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 08:45
  #388 (permalink)  
 
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What is ironic is the total media silence on the two Brits that flew their aircraft into the Pyrenees recently and non stop cover on this one due to Celebrity. If there's any good to come out of this avoidable mess perhaps the authorities will deal with people operating dodgy schemes to get around regulations that were created to make the public safe.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 09:05
  #389 (permalink)  
 
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Insurance is important because the act of getting correctly insured is a major step in the validation or otherwise of any given commercial activity (like commercial aviation). Insurers do not generally insure non-compliant activity (not implying anything whatsoever about this accident).

The employers liability CH is referring to is called Death in Service Benefit, and it will depend on the employer's terms and conditions of employment, which will be almost infinitely variable. However, a very frequent and standard clause is any payment made in the first two years of employment will be a single, not very big, lump sum. What Cardiff City have in place nobody other than the employers and employees of said outfit will know, but the suggestion that his family will benefit is somewhat fanciful. He was single and childless, was he not not? That means he has no dependents to pay out too. Death in Service schemes do not normally pay out to parents/siblings, they are designed to protect dependents.

I agree all this is speculative and not the most important part of the flight safety discussion (albeit, it is significant in the context of licensing), so might I suggest, people who don't know about insurance and associated issues, stop posting (guessing) about the subject. That way we can stick to the flying.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 09:09
  #390 (permalink)  
 
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Mr Ibbotson, who worked as a gas engineer based in Crowle, is believed to have had extensive experience carrying parachute enthusiasts on flights from private airfields.
Well I have extensive (sort of) experience of jumping out of such aircraft.

We never paid the pilots anything. Maybe a lunch in the pub afterwards. There was a queue of them wanting to do the work. One of them drove 150 miles each way for a weekend's jumping. They fell into two categories. Young guys who wanted the hours as part of building up their experience to apply to an airline. And older/retired guys who did it to keep their hours up at somebody else's expense. I believe glider clubs work the same way with glider tug tow pilots.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 09:16
  #391 (permalink)  
 
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Unlike glider towing and parachute dropping, banner tower required required a CPL and it was in my case. Likewise I only ever did parachute dropping for payment.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 09:20
  #392 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately, there is nothing new about 'grey charters' which this one certainly was. There is nothing grey about them though. Want to fly someone or something in return for money?......get an AOC. It's that simple and entirely black or white. The regulation is there, but the policing isn't. We made the conscious decision to get out of the King Air charter market because we simply could compete with illegal charters, or bullshit 'private flights' where the passengers 'lease' the aircraft from the owner, then hire a pilot separately.....(Illegal charter dressed up to look like something else). Me and many others have highlighted this to the CAA on many occasions and yet they do very little about it. It's a shame to say that the lack of action by the authorities, (EASA and the national regulators) makes them complicit in this dreadful and entirely avoidable loss of life.

And don't kid yourselves that this is limited to small piston aircraft. It goes up into some very high end biz jets too. On private cat, the safety margins are completely eroded. No margins on RWY length required, no limits to crew duty hours, crew training is basic and falls way short of AOC standards and the whole process has hardly any regulatory oversight. It's a farce that is ripe for smart arses who revel in profiteering by ducking and diving around the regulations at the expense of best practice and safety of those on board that are ignorant to risks they are taking.

This poor footballer who knew nothing of the complex regulations concerning air charter simply wasn't protected by either the regulator or the industry. And a naïve pilot who wasn't protected from his own error of judgement.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 09:23
  #393 (permalink)  
 
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What is ironic is the total media silence on the two Brits that flew their aircraft into the Pyrenees recently and non stop cover on this one due to Celebrity.
Probably because the former were both experienced pilots doing their thing. I agree there is 'celebrity' involved in this incident but in my opinion the two are far from similar.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 09:33
  #394 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately, you don't have to look to hard on Facebook to find PPL holders with aircraft offering to 'fly you anywhere'. My local area residents FB page has three pilots regularly posting (advertising) to fly you, none of which are locally based.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 09:34
  #395 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eutychus View Post

And with reference to my own question about CI flying practices,
*
Recently a Guernsey airtaxi service started up by a company called 'Waves'. They were clamped down on because they were essentially advertising & operating scheduled flights. They've now gone bust. They were using a single-engined plane There's also a seaplane service looking to start up. Plenty of stuff in the local media about both operations. I don't know what qualifications / regulations apply, but the 'Guernsey Air transport licensing board' may throw up some useful info if you can be bothered to google?
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 09:41
  #396 (permalink)  
 
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The flight was arranged by McKay but?

It seems Mark McKay admitted to arranging the flight. However, he was not the agent of the passenger (at least not formally). Was Mark McKay acting as agent for Cardiff City or Nantes or was he effectively agent for Sala? Did he do something wrong by arranging the flight. Did the pilot do something wrong? Did the beneficial owners of the aircraft do something wrong? Are the beneficial owners protected from liability by virtue of the trust arrangement? Could the trustees be liable?

These are just some of the questions that will no doubt occupy lawyers and courts for some time.

On the basis of the information available I would not have elected to fly at night over water in marginal weather in a single piston engine aircraft. I suspect that many pilots and passengers would also have chosen not to fly. Sala was under pressure to be in Cardiff for training and perhaps that was the irrational factor that caused the choice to fly. It is a tragic story.

I cannot imagine the grief and regret of all concerned; in particular the families and friends of those missing. I hope that this tragedy will result in some changes to reduce the chances of this kind of incident from reoccurring. When in doubt, stay on the ground. I also hope that the authorities will resume the search for several days more, for the sake of the families. Hopes may be remote at this stage, but not absolutely impossible if there was a life-raft available. The lack of debris may suggest that the aircraft did not disintegrate on impact and has sunk largely intact. However, the safety of the SAR personnel must also be a factor in any decision.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 10:06
  #397 (permalink)  
 
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According to the Daily Mail, Wingly have confirmed the flight was not booked through them - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...11th-hour.html
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 10:31
  #398 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect there are a number of people who have substantial responsibility for this reckless flight that should never have happened. Whoever actually suggested and promoted this flight to Sala has the most responsibility. I suspect Sala was a young guy wishing to please in a new environment at Cardiff with minimal knowledge of general aviation. He would probably have just trusted those that recommended this flight and crossed his fingers. We all know questioning such suggestions can be seen as insulting and can be awkward to do - certainly to press doubts very far. This flight was patently so stupid with so many blindingly obvious high risk factors - old plane, single engine, piston engine, night, winter, fairly poor weather, across extensive water, virtually unsurvivably cold water, poorly qualified pilot, inadequately competent pilot, single pilot. And no doubt more. Whoever was the de facto owner/controlling mind of this plane must surely have known of the proposed flight. And should have said it was not suitable and stopped it. Anyone introducing the flight to Sala should not have done so without either having sufficient knowledge or asking someone that did have. Fail again. And the pilot should have had far more responsibility and said the risk factors were far too high to be inflicted on an unwitting, vulnerable passenger. And not accepted the flight. I find it hard to believe Cardiff FC have no responsibility either - they should have delved into Sala's travel arrangements more than they did and taken some advice. Which could have been as simple as Googling "Cardiff aircraft charter" which would have brought up local Dragon Fly amongst others, and simply called them for advice, even if they had no interest in chartering a private jet. Had they sought such advice, Sala would surely not have been in the fateful flight.

Clearly there were significant motivating factors for poor Sala to end up on a totally obviously inappropriate flight which cost him his life. No doubt these will come out in the investigation.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 10:35
  #399 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


Mike, the second pilot has been named on the internet as Dave Henderson, indeed for a time the media posted him as missing with the aircraft. However, Dave has unequivocally stated that he was not there.
It would be interesting to hear why he got so close to boarding the aircraft but changed his mind.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 10:37
  #400 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wheelsright View Post
Snip:
I suspect that many pilots and passengers would also have chosen not to fly.
I doubt this very much. The passengers are very likely to assume the Pilot is a professional, or an individual exercising a high degree of professional type competency. Pilots are very often considered very responsible high achievers, unless there was something blindingly obvious that was wrong with an aircraft or a proposed trip, the man on the street will take it as read that all is above board, because aviation sits in an area where the public perception is that safety and professionalism are the foundations the industry/pastime is based on. And generally it is.

However Eutychus has provided ‘us’ (if I’ve understood him/her) with a view to a degree from the passenger viewpoint. When paying for a service there is a presumption that they are in receipt of a professionally run, appropriately administered and insured flight. A bit of this is caveat emptor, buyer beware, but I suggest the ‘pedestal’ that aviation sits on makes due diligence checks less likely, and as Eu asks, where does the layman start, and with what questions. You get in a taxi in the UK you can see a plate that identifies it as certified for hire and reward, you should also see the drivers Taxi ID too, (disregarding Uber etc). There’s nothing like that available to a passenger when boarding a light SEP, one crew, in sleet and heavy mist to fly UK to Holland to indicate they’ve chosen a ‘proper’ operation. They pax put their trust in us, the industry.
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