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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 24th Jan 2019, 21:39
  #361 (permalink)  
 
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There is a nasty smell and it is coming from a can of worms that has been opened. I don’t know if there will be any shortcomings in either the licence or the flying skills of the pilot, we will have to wait and see. However, what would worry me is if the pilot takes all the blame for this tragedy when there are others with a callous disregard for human life who simply melt away. I can’t recall another accident, except for Cork, where you can’t identify the owner/operator of the aircraft and there are so many people shaking their heads saying ‘Nothing to do with me’.
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 21:46
  #362 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
There is a nasty smell and it is coming from a can of worms that has been opened. I don’t know if there will be any shortcomings in either the licence or the flying skills of the pilot, we will have to wait and see. However, what would worry me is if the pilot takes all the blame for this tragedy when there are others with a callous disregard for human life who simply melt away. I can’t recall another accident, except for Cork, where you can’t identify the owner/operator of the aircraft and there are so many people shaking their heads saying ‘Nothing to do with me’.
I’m not sure I am following you here: there is only one person in charge and it’s the pilot. He can always say “no”.
Also I would be interested to know more about the second, much more experienced pilot, that alledgedely decided to not go with them at the last minute (after passing Nantes’ airport controls.)
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 21:52
  #363 (permalink)  
 
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O

Originally Posted by Super VC-10 View Post
Whilst the aircraft involved was displaying N6645Y, at the time of the accident it was being flown unregistered and stateless.
Thank you for calling out that key point. I'd just used the title text from the AAIB report. On checking I see the registration has since been reallocated. Goes to show that as mentioned in many posts above - if the aircraft looks the part, and the pilot talks the talk, why would the average person see anything as being 'risky' and start asking pointed questions?

Last edited by Strumble Head; 24th Jan 2019 at 21:56. Reason: first version posted incomplete in error
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 21:57
  #364 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Edward Teach View Post
I'm fairly sure VSKP was maintained correctly and being flown within the correct flight envelope! As was LN-OJF, G-REDL and G-TIGK.
obviously not the correct place to start a discussion on helicopter accidents but you've stated 4 there. Yes there are more, mechanical failures account for so many. Pilot error a few. but put in context with the amount of helicopter flights taking place around the globe on a daily basis. Anyway, we digress. We can save this for another thread in Rotorheads I'm sure. As a full time helicopter pilot I have to trust it won't happen to me if I do all I possibly can to mitigate the risks. ie esp when spending hours searching the English Channel for downed fixed wing aircraft.
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 22:31
  #365 (permalink)  
 
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From the Sun so I have no way to verify whether this is true or not.

“Mr Ibbotson belonged to three “ferry flight” Facebook groups where companies advertise flying jobs and had worked for Mr McKay before using the same plane.

He flew Nice FC general manager Julien Fournier from Surrey to the French port of Marseille in the single-engined US-registered Piper last year.

A source said: “Pilots are offered cash, airline tickets and hotel rooms in exchange for flying brand new aircraft to customers, or flying customers.”

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Old 24th Jan 2019, 22:58
  #366 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mikebrant View Post


I’m not sure I am following you here: there is only one person in charge and it’s the pilot. He can always say “no”.
Also I would be interested to know more about the second, much more experienced pilot, that alledgedely decided to not go with them at the last minute (after passing Nantes’ airport controls.)
If, and I don’t know if this is the case here, a pilot is recruited by someone who knows he doesn’t have the correct qualifications but knows he is cheap; is it only the pilot who is at fault or the person offering the money as well? If, and I don’t know if this the case here, an aircraft owner doesn’t enquire what their aircraft is going to be used for and doesn’t care about the qualifications of the pilot; is it only the pilot who is at fault or the aircraft owner as well?
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 23:16
  #367 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mikebrant View Post


I’m not sure I am following you here: there is only one person in charge and it’s the pilot. He can always say “no”.
Also I would be interested to know more about the second, much more experienced pilot, that alledgedely decided to not go with them at the last minute (after passing Nantes’ airport controls.)
Mike, the second pilot has been named on the internet as Dave Henderson, indeed for a time the media posted him as missing with the aircraft. However, Dave has unequivocally stated that he was not there.
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 23:17
  #368 (permalink)  
 
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Reading comments on this thread about people failing to find themselves or people they know on the FAA database, I decided to look myself up. Not there apparently. After a bit of experimentation I discovered that if I removed all of the search terms except my name the entry came up. Did bring to my attention the fact that the FAA certificate is linked to a UK licence number which is not the one I have now. Not sure what I have to do about that but I will wait until after Brexit before bothering to find out!
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 23:38
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Originally Posted by ea200 View Post
Reading comments on this thread about people failing to find themselves or people they know on the FAA database
From: https://registry.faa.gov/database/CS012019.zip:

On April 5, 2000, the Wendell H. Ford Aviation Investment and Reform Act for the 21st Century became Public Law 106-181. Section 715 of that law requires the Federal Aviation Administration to release names, addresses, and ratings information for all airmen after the 120th day following the date of enactment.

The law also requires that the airmen be given an opportunity to elect that their address information be withheld from release under this law. Accordingly, the FAA sent letters to all active airmen informing them of the provisions of the law, and giving them the option to withhold their address information. The FAA will be continuing this procedure for airmen who become active. Responses from the letters have been processed.

This file contains the names, addresses, and certificate information of those airmen who did not respond to indicate that they wished to withhold their address information.



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Old 25th Jan 2019, 00:23
  #370 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vintage ATCO View Post
The last visibility Hill was given for Elstree was 800m with no instrument let down .
I believe it was suspected he had devised an "instrument" descent of his own, based on a back-course along a Lambourne VOR radial and DME. I think someone had seen him do it before.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 00:39
  #371 (permalink)  
 
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I humbly beg to differ. Painful as it may be, apart from cavalier attitudes to keeping their ratings current (they weren't), the main issues in both the the Colin McCrae and Graham Hill incidents were two pilots who had higher opinions of their skills than they, in truth, had. This caused their deaths and those of eight innocent members of the public flying with them.
I think I may have been the first to mention the Graham Hill accident on this thread. Before commenting I went back and read the B of I to verify that what I had remembered was correct. My main point was that the primary cause was the well known and all too common phenomenon of "get homeitis" in that he chose to attempt a very difficult approach in marginal conditions, when he had the opportunity to divert to airfields with no weather problems. Hill definitely had form here, including an earlier incident when he landed unannounced at Elstree at night after the airfield had closed. Having a cavalier attitude to safety may have been ok in the world of F1 in the 60s and 70s. but those attitudes do not transfer well to aviation, particularly when it is not just your own neck you are risking
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 01:06
  #372 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ea200 View Post
Did bring to my attention the fact that the FAA certificate is linked to a UK licence number which is not the one I have now. Not sure what I have to do about that but I will wait until after Brexit before bothering to find out!
You have to go through the full verification process again. Your FAA certificate is not valid right now.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 06:22
  #373 (permalink)  
 
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The pilot was 60 years old. So wouldn't have been allowed to do commercial single pilot ops under EASA regs.

I won't post a picture of the pilot, but he doesn't look as if he is in the prime of health for his age.

Last edited by tescoapp; 25th Jan 2019 at 06:35.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 07:04
  #374 (permalink)  
 
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Hill’s FAA IR had lapsed, so had his UK IMC rating; his UK PPL was still valid. The aeroplane’s US registration had been cancelled three years previously; it was unregistered and stateless.
And effectively uninsured . I believe his estate was was sued and his family lost their home.

...he (Damon Hill) and his mother and two sisters were to discover that, because important documents had not been kept in order, the insurance policies were invalid. The consequences effectively ruined them...

It is for this reason amongst several others, that I believe the time is right for a far more transparent, clear, consistent and effectively policed compliance regime in all aspects of GA flying that involves the carriage of passengers. Period.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 07:10
  #375 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Ninja as View Post
I stand to be corrected but there is more than ATC radar cover in this area especially with the sensitivity of a nuclear power plant on the coast.
Standing by!
Yes that puzzled me as well as there is at least a dozen civil radar covering the area, and of course the French and UK air force primary radars. now how low they go is another question , which I do not have the answer.. Tracking in real time is difficult, but post accident , with filters ?
Anyway to locate a small aircraft in the sea with accuracy is very difficult , even when you know precisely where it went down .

A Cessna 206 went down 10 years back taking off from Ajaccio Corsica only a few miles from the coast in daytime, SAR had the exact position the a/c went down , the pax were in a small dinghy , helicopter was on site within minutes but it took them over 7 hours to find them. In fact they only found them when it was night , using IR googles , one pilot spotted the small lamp of one pax life vest ! . The sea was rough. The PIC, was an AF 777 pilot with is wife and parents on board, ,he wrote a few years ago a very good detailed article about it in an aviation magazine in France .
Some info here just found on internet for those interested : ( in french ) :. C206 ajaccio 2009
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 07:28
  #376 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
In fact they only found them when it was night , using IR googles , one pilot spotted the small lamp of one pax life vest !
Just a minor detail, the article says they were found thanks to thermal IR detection.

Les militaires et les gendarmes, qui ont des lunettes infrarouges, ont pu nous repérer [dans la nuit] grâce aux taches de chaleur.
.

And with reference to my own question about CI flying practices, further up, a PPL acquaintance writes:

It's perfectly possible for a small flying club to also run a private charter business using beaten up 4 seaters and as a way of building hours for recently qualified commercial pilots. But they still need an AOC and the plane still needs to be flown by someone with a CPL minimum.
So it would seem that the key question for conscientious SLF to ask anyone proposing to fly them in such an aircraft against payment is: "do you have an AOC and a CPL?" Which may or may not have been the case for the flights I took above.

*
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 07:38
  #377 (permalink)  
 
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Whats all this talk on insurance? Considered we talk of a young soccer player just changing club for a whopping £15m, a law engagement if started will be in the 10 years lost income compensation scheme and well in the three digit £XXXm region. So, if there was something wrong that way, the widow and family of the pilot are doomed.

Please let us focus here on the pilotty thingies!
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 07:42
  #378 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eutychus View Post
Just a minor detail, the article says they were found thanks to thermal IR detection.

Erm...what other kind of IR detection do you think there is??

PDR
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 07:50
  #379 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Erm...what other kind of IR detection do you think there is??

PDR
I was referring to this statement which does not appear accurate, possibly because of the linked article not being in the poster's native language:

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
In fact they only found them when it was night , using IR googles , one pilot spotted the small lamp of one pax life vest !
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 08:31
  #380 (permalink)  
 
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So how prevalent is this type of flying , possibly bypassing the safeguards afforded by an AOC holder.
The Jersey Aero Club public Facebook page has a post from January 21st inviting someone to “ QUOTE ( a price) ” to transport a person from the Southampton area to Jersey on a certain date in March to “avoid” the need to fly from LGW.
Or is this perfectly acceptable under cost sharing rules and is effectively a Wingly type of service being offered but where the potential customer has no knowledge of the Pilots ability or experience?
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