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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:17
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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I do like how you can check a pilot's credentials with the FAA - frankly a similar system in EASA land would at least allow passengers (or indeed flight schools etc) to do some of their own referencing.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:24
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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N264DB is reported as being owned by Willie McKay ( ex Doncaster Rovers Football Agent )
Mark McKay is the son of Willie McKay, Mark is the football agent who brokered the Emiliano Sala transfer deal.

Willie McKay has twin sons Paul and Jack who are Cardiff FC footballers, so I think there is a link between Willie McKay & Cardiff FC that some are trying to cover up?

It looks like that a link with 2 of his son's being fellow Cardiff FC footballers & his other son being the Football Agent for Sala puts a few pointers towards the whole deal was very much arranged within the McKay Stable.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:24
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vanHorck View Post
Whatever the legalities, and who arranged what for whom, the outrage is clearly rapidly rising. A non-IR legally licensed private pilot decided to take a passenger (for reward or not) in a piston single during bad weather over very cold seas. Clearly the operator allowed te pilot to use the plane and the pilot decided to execute the flight. This is worse than bad
How do we know he wasnít instrument rated?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:30
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by piperboy84 View Post
How do we know he wasn’t instrument rated?
There are only two David Ibbotsons in the FAA Airmen registry (which is public information), and neither has an Instrument Rating. One is a UK-based pilot. You can't legally fly a US-registered plane in France on a UK licence (even though both are EASA) - hence he's not properly licensed.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:34
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1 View Post
N264DB is reported as being owned by Willie McKay ( ex Doncaster Rovers Football Agent )
Mark McKay is the son of Willie McKay, Mark is the football agent who brokered the Emiliano Sala transfer deal.

Willie McKay has twin sons Paul and Jack who are Cardiff FC footballers, so I think there is a link between Willie McKay & Cardiff FC that some are trying to cover up?

It looks like that a link with 2 of his son's being fellow Cardiff FC footballers & his other son being the Football Agent for Sala puts a few pointers towards the whole deal was very much arranged within the McKay Stable.
Interesting connections which can be verified. But earlier Mark McKay stated that the plane was not owned by himself or any member of his family. Who is telling the truth - or is the family so rich one member doesn't know what another owns?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:39
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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He’s right, a trust is the legal owner.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:41
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting connections which can be verified. But earlier Mark McKay stated that the plane was not owned by himself or any member of his family. Who is telling the truth - or is the family so rich one member doesn't know what another owns
As was mentioned earlier, it seems this was someone doing someone else a 'favour' with the non-aviating participants not having a clue about flying cross-country, internationally or in difficult weather. A perfect storm of ignorance, self-confidence and an aged aircraft.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:45
  #228 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1 View Post
N264DB is reported (i.e. speculation) as being owned by Willie McKay ( ex Doncaster Rovers Football Agent )
Mark McKay (who disputes family ownership according to a previous post) is the son of Willie McKay, Mark is the football agent who brokered the Emiliano Sala transfer deal.

Willie McKay has twin sons Paul and Jack who are Cardiff FC footballers, so I think (= your speculation) there is a link between Willie McKay & Cardiff FC that some are trying to cover up?

It looks like (= speculation) that a link with 2 of his son's being fellow Cardiff FC footballers & his other son being the Football Agent for Sala puts a few pointers towards the whole deal was very much arranged within the McKay Stable.
Any moderately trained lawyer could have a field day with this post.

At the end of the day, does it matter who "arranged" the flight and whether money was involved or not? It was the PIC who could have taken the right decision at the right time not to carry out the flight.

As regards IR or not, that question is also answered in the previous posts.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:52
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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I think it does matter because there are parties involved that owe a duty of care to their client/player. There are parties involved that have a duty to not take actions that may invalidate their insurance cover. My prophecy is a good pay day for the lawyers.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:54
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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Questions have been asked on PPRuNe if Cardiff FC had taken out a life policy on Sala, the same could be asked of the McKay stable?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:59
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vanHorck View Post
Whatever the legalities, and who arranged what for whom, the outrage is clearly rapidly rising. A non-IR legally licensed private pilot decided to take a passenger (for reward or not) in a piston single during bad weather over very cold seas. Clearly the operator allowed te pilot to use the plane and the pilot decided to execute the flight. This is worse than bad
He was IR(r) qualified or at least he used to be and renewed it for his jump flying activities. He was a seasoned jump pilot and had ferried planes regularly to dropzones across Europe and further afield, typically Dorner G92s , Grand Caravans etc. He was a competent pilot so the speculation about his abilities are totally unfounded as I flew with him on a variety of occasions and he was both professional and competent, including in IMC.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:59
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by anchorhold View Post
Questions have been asked on PPRuNe if Cardiff FC had taken out a life policy on Sala, the same could be asked of the McKay stable?
Why would they?

McKay was not Sala's agent.



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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 20:01
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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Pour encourager les autres

Single engine cross channel (and any other overwater) flight can go very wrong. We have had a sad reminder after a hiatus of losses allowing complacency to set in.

Sea state and water temperature can be every bit as important as atmospheric conditions in planning overwater flights.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 20:02
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post
Originally Posted by Cambridge172 View Post
According to one US aviation database, although the Owner Trustee was Southern Aircraft Consulting, the actual UK owner was a Ms Fay Keely of Coolflourish Limited, Mansfield
She appears to be an accountant and not necessarily the beneficial owner of the aircraft.

Yes, she's an accountant, but that doesn't preclude owning an aircraft.

Interestingly, Cool Flourish Ltd owned Gamston-based Cherokee Six G-FAVS from 2012 to 2017.

N264DB was also based at Gamston.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 20:09
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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On the basis that earlier reports, of the aircraft failing (three times) to get airborne are true, the passenger and Pilot have clearly not been paying attention to "the signs" from the outside world.

Why would you send a voicemail saying you were so concerned, but still make the journey?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 20:14
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airpolice View Post
Why would they?

McKay was not Sala's agent.
According to the Mirror, Mark McKay was Sala's agent.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 20:15
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rr84c View Post
There are only two David Ibbotsons in the FAA Airmen registry (which is public information), and neither has an Instrument Rating. One is a UK-based pilot. You can't legally fly a US-registered plane in France on a UK licence (even though both are EASA) - hence he's not properly licensed.
You have mentioned this several times, two D. Ibbitsonís, and now claim somewhat authoritively that he was ď not properly licencedĒ.

You are aware, are you not, that one can opt out of having your personal details published on the FAA Airman website?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 20:27
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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Pause a minute

Let us break this down, one bit at a time.

1) The fact the passenger was a well-paid footballer has no direct bearing on the flight or how he chooses to travel. James May is a well-paid tv personality who flies himself in a single and the Duke of Edinburgh chooses to drive himself. If someone suggested this flight when a more redundant option might be considered appropriate that is far outside the realm of pilot speculation.

2) It is entirely reasonable in itself for a private pilot to fly a single engine aircraft from Nantes to Cardiff, and to take a passenger. And with a valid night rating to do so at night. I personally happen to fly a twin and have taken my IR but I have many times crossed the channel in a single, and not just from Lydd to Le Touquet, carrying friends and family, in the past and I expect virtually every qualified pilot here has done so.

3) A PA46 is far from an entry level aircraft and is eminently suitable for such a flight.

4) So there are perfectly reasonable and legal circumstances under which that plane on that route with those people on board might have flown that route. So let’s not damn the whole thing.

5) Now, it sounds like the pilot may not have had an IR rating and was flying into weather where VFR conditions were not certain. That’s not good. If in fact the pilot was flying in conditions for which he was not qualified, that is covered by existing legislation and no further regulation is needed.

6) It sounds like snow and icing conditions were likely and the aircraft had basic de-icing but may or may not have been cleared for severe icing or FKI. This seems at least like poor judgement of conditions.

7) The flight was planned at night over a long stretch of open winter water and the assumption is immersion suits weren’t worn. That was lacking caution.

8) It seems quite possible that this was a commercial flight conducted at best on the margins of what was legally permissible. Whilst legality has no direct bearing on the intrinsic safety of a flight it does have a bearing on the passenger expectations and likelihood of pressure to continue into conditions beyond either a pilot’s legal qualification or prudent judgement. Again rules exist to prevent such flights.

9) It seems likely given the absence of a mayday that control was lost suddenly quite possibly due to a combination of icing and pilot failing to handle the conditions.

10) If conditions ahead or at the time were less than favourable a prudent decision to abort and divert to one of the Channel Islands might have avoided disaster.

11) The decision to fly at only 5000 ft (didn’t check Class A base) and to descend was not necessarily the best.

12) Most of us would probably agree if even some of the assumptions are true that the flight was not simply unfortunate but unwise and quite possibly an avoidable accident.

Tragically if, as it seems, there were infringements the pilot is not in a condition to face prosecution. And his famous and unfortunate passenger is not around to comment on his knowledge of the decision process.

This is not a reason to jump on a press bandwagon to call for more regulation or assert that all single engine flights should be banned etc.

it’s like the hysteria when someone 5 times over the limit driving at 90 in a cul de sac kills someone there is a clamour to reduce alcohol limits or speed limits.

If some of the above assumptions prove correct then we should all calmly say various regulations exist to reduce the risk of such incidents and tragically this flight seems to have been conducted in contravention of regulations.

But that’s just my take.

It’s still tragic for all involved. What we should all remember is with slightly different circumstances it might have all been ok. I would be very surprised if any pilot at some point hasn’t taken a decision thinking it will probably be ok, and fortunately it was.


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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 20:33
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 3wheels View Post
You are aware, are you not, that one can opt out of having your personal details published on the FAA Airman website?
Wrong. Only address information. See here - they legally have to make certificate info available: https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certifi...releasability/
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 20:44
  #240 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by patagonia1 View Post
He was IR(r) qualified or at least he used to be and renewed it for his jump flying activities. He was a seasoned jump pilot and had ferried planes regularly to dropzones across Europe and further afield, typically Dorner G92s , Grand Caravans etc. He was a competent pilot so the speculation about his abilities are totally unfounded as I flew with him on a variety of occasions and he was both professional and competent, including in IMC.
I donít care how competent you are, if you arenít current then you may not be as competent as you think you are. We donít know at the moment.

Even if you are competent, you have a responsibility to make your passengers aware of the risks of single engine over water at night.
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