UK Aircraft Pyrenees Crash Spain
Oh no, not another one! Did Dave do some tug work with the PNGC at Lee-on-Solent certainly back in the early 1990's? I'm sure he did - which is where I think I recall the name from. Anyone happen to know? If so, a really great guy - fairly quiet if I recall. He always knew I like being dropped off in a certain area so, even when conditions were not ideal, as soon as he worked out I was behind him on the other end of the rope, he'd set off direct to "my spot" (3000 ft over Cowes!) and "dump" me there. Happy, happy days. What a great shame to hear the news; he joins the list of others I have known who died doing what they loved so much. Condolences to both families involved. Dreadful news........
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Originally Posted by lpvapproach
It seems highly unlikely they would continue across most of Spain in this situation, esp when any failure, if indeed there was one, occurred in VMC with riks of that changing further on.
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Originally Posted by Philoctetes
Seems they intended to as the pitot heat was also off to save battery power.
If, as you sugggest,they intended to continue, KNOWING they had a failure, then surely they would have turned off the Strobes, ADF, DME, VORs and other radios? All these appear to be on.
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I flew tp LESO VFR a couple of times coming from Spain , , first question coming to my mind why would you overfly exactly the top of the highest obstacle in the area ? Likely to encounter turbulence . waves or even rotors , plus Vultures ( a real danger in the area) If they were as reported 2 experienced pilots make even less sense, as the valley below is wide and flat until the sea..One reason might be they were on a direct route and did not want to deviate because , either fuel ( but unlikely looking at the gauges on the photos) , but yes maybe the Generator U/S ( or more likely fuse ) then battery getting low, wanting to keep SSR and VHF on and minimize air time ,, etc,, But why keep the strobe for instance. after take off ? , a great energy pumper .
I also see they had a Garmin GPS likely with terrain info, they surely got into the red , unless they switch it off to save power in the end.. or it was was something else that brought them here.
We probably will never know.
Very sad indeed . RIP .
I also see they had a Garmin GPS likely with terrain info, they surely got into the red , unless they switch it off to save power in the end.. or it was was something else that brought them here.
We probably will never know.
Very sad indeed . RIP .
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Atc watcher
Tragic to see experienced private pilots ending like this. Indeed.
We most likely will not know exactly what happened, but we can still learn.
Here is how I did it:
In the fall of 1988 and the following winter I did my training in Gimli , Canada.
As it was to cold to fly at times and I had done all the relevant theory, I attacked ALL Canadian accident reports going 10 to 15 years back!
Relevance for You as a young private pilot You ask: Technical and weather related accidents are the same as in the 1970s and early 80s.
Difference is that the Pipers and Cessna was NEW then!
With regards to mountain flying and marginal weather one must err on the safe side.
Atc Watcher, I wonder if You are close to the main problem:
I have flown multiple times into this region, IFR , 737. Same , same , but different!
Weather and wind makes it interesting, but for us it maters not as I can always opt out with a 3000 feet per minute , plus GA.
I shall get to my point: This region is notorious for turbulence and occasional mountain wave, we have SIGMETs on it every second day.
And even at FL330 and above I am always cautious!
Here is why: Ca 5 year ago I was fat and happy southbound at FL370 with a fair margin on the speed.Say we did M.78 ( IAS 235) with 20 kts to amber band!
Sky clear.
Suddenly we started getting pushed up by a mountain wave, as in climbing with 1500 feet/min in ALT Hold, power going for idle!
I promptly asked for descend to FL 350 or 330, was asked to stby then demanded it and got it. And good was that, a we now got on the backside of the wave and we descended in speed mode with FULL PWR and still went down with 1000f/m!!
As we leveled off we managed to hold altitude and speed, but to this day I am sure we would have been close to stall if we had tried to stay up there!
How is this relevant to this accident, we do not know if they had any turbulence or downdraft, but if transiting mountains like this make sure You have altitude to trade. Out climbing it is often not an option.
Here is a general rule for You all when transiting mountains if any chance of wave: Altitude of Mountain x 2 = Cruise Altitude!
Pictures may not be as spectacular up there, but at least You get home safe!
You all stay safe now and light a candle for this departed Crew!
Humbly
Cpt B
We most likely will not know exactly what happened, but we can still learn.
Here is how I did it:
In the fall of 1988 and the following winter I did my training in Gimli , Canada.
As it was to cold to fly at times and I had done all the relevant theory, I attacked ALL Canadian accident reports going 10 to 15 years back!
Relevance for You as a young private pilot You ask: Technical and weather related accidents are the same as in the 1970s and early 80s.
Difference is that the Pipers and Cessna was NEW then!
With regards to mountain flying and marginal weather one must err on the safe side.
Atc Watcher, I wonder if You are close to the main problem:
I have flown multiple times into this region, IFR , 737. Same , same , but different!
Weather and wind makes it interesting, but for us it maters not as I can always opt out with a 3000 feet per minute , plus GA.
I shall get to my point: This region is notorious for turbulence and occasional mountain wave, we have SIGMETs on it every second day.
And even at FL330 and above I am always cautious!
Here is why: Ca 5 year ago I was fat and happy southbound at FL370 with a fair margin on the speed.Say we did M.78 ( IAS 235) with 20 kts to amber band!
Sky clear.
Suddenly we started getting pushed up by a mountain wave, as in climbing with 1500 feet/min in ALT Hold, power going for idle!
I promptly asked for descend to FL 350 or 330, was asked to stby then demanded it and got it. And good was that, a we now got on the backside of the wave and we descended in speed mode with FULL PWR and still went down with 1000f/m!!
As we leveled off we managed to hold altitude and speed, but to this day I am sure we would have been close to stall if we had tried to stay up there!
How is this relevant to this accident, we do not know if they had any turbulence or downdraft, but if transiting mountains like this make sure You have altitude to trade. Out climbing it is often not an option.
Here is a general rule for You all when transiting mountains if any chance of wave: Altitude of Mountain x 2 = Cruise Altitude!
Pictures may not be as spectacular up there, but at least You get home safe!
You all stay safe now and light a candle for this departed Crew!
Humbly
Cpt B
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Actually, you shouldn't be flying near any mountain in mountain wave forming conditions with any GA airplane, period. However this accident seems to be a VMC into IMC/CFIT than a mountain wave issue.
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BluSdUp : good comments cannot agree more with you , I know the power of waves as I fly gliders too.
Rorobskye :
Yes, but could be both, a medium size cumulus hiding the top of the hill, you are planning to go on top of both but the downdraft catch you and force you in, you see the ground on the other side, tempted to let it go into the cloud for 10- 15 sec max ? except this time the top of the hill is in the cloud. , but speculating , could be anything else, Reminds me a bit of the Santa Maria Independent air 707 ( 1989 , check google if interested) hitting the highest tree on top of the only obstacle in the area for hundreds of miles, in clear blue sky .. except for the cumulus on top of the old volcano..
Rorobskye :
However this accident seems to be a VMC into IMC/CFIT than a mountain wave issue.
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
I flew tp LESO VFR a couple of times coming from Spain , , first question coming to my mind why would you overfly exactly the top of the highest obstacle in the area ? Likely to encounter turbulence . waves or even rotors , plus Vultures ( a real danger in the area) If they were as reported 2 experienced pilots make even less sense, as the valley below is wide and flat until the sea..One reason might be they were on a direct route and did not want to deviate because , either fuel ( but unlikely looking at the gauges on the photos) , but yes maybe the Generator U/S ( or more likely fuse ) then battery getting low, wanting to keep SSR and VHF on and minimize air time ,, etc,, But why keep the strobe for instance. after take off ? , a great energy pumper .
I also see they had a Garmin GPS likely with terrain info, they surely got into the red , unless they switch it off to save power in the end.. or it was was something else that brought them here.
We probably will never know.
Very sad indeed . RIP .
I also see they had a Garmin GPS likely with terrain info, they surely got into the red , unless they switch it off to save power in the end.. or it was was something else that brought them here.
We probably will never know.
Very sad indeed . RIP .
Its been a while since I flew with a G430/530 but I think terrain is an optional feature. Not many VFR aircraft have it as it costs extra and is not needed.
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Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2
Comms are on the GPS so I doubt it would be switched off.
Its been a while since I flew with a G430/530 but I think terrain is an optional feature. Not many VFR aircraft have it as it costs extra and is not needed.
Its been a while since I flew with a G430/530 but I think terrain is an optional feature. Not many VFR aircraft have it as it costs extra and is not needed.
As to terrain , well it is available on a cheap 296 , so I though it would be standard on the 430. I have never seen them without it I must say but I take your word for it .
Originally Posted by hec7or
Yes, it's the same Dave.
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Accident report now published: https://www.mitma.gob.es/recursos_mf..._report_nm.pdf
CFIT in IMC on VFR flight plan.
CFIT in IMC on VFR flight plan.
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The plane had a Garmin 430W - which therefore has Terrain Awareness. The data card was updated just a few week’s earlier by the same person who updates my own.
In a previous posting a picture clearly shows that ‘Terrain Awareness’ was not turned off since that activates a Warning Flag which was not visible.
I can only presume that the 430 was failing (Due to voltage drop?); but what were they then doing R/T on?
i cannot conceivably understand how two well experienced and qualified pilots would ignore such warnings if they appeared.
it is still a mystery - despite the Air Accident Report - what did/did not occur to cause such a sad outcome.
In a previous posting a picture clearly shows that ‘Terrain Awareness’ was not turned off since that activates a Warning Flag which was not visible.
I can only presume that the 430 was failing (Due to voltage drop?); but what were they then doing R/T on?
i cannot conceivably understand how two well experienced and qualified pilots would ignore such warnings if they appeared.
it is still a mystery - despite the Air Accident Report - what did/did not occur to cause such a sad outcome.
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Originally Posted by Peter Geldard
i cannot conceivably understand how two well experienced and qualified pilots would ignore such warnings if they appeared..
In that case, pilots ignore terrain warnings since they have ground contact below them. I ignored my GNS430 for sure.
At the same time, it is still possible that the forward vision is unexpectedly obscured by low hanging cloud fractus and with a rising terrain, this can quikcly become a death trap.
To avoid people attempting to scud run in mountenous areas, EASA has invendent some kind of en-route instrument rating (EIR), to allow flights to take IFR route segments, above or inside clouds, but depart and land only under VFR. But I am not sure it is widespread in the member states.
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Originally Posted by atceng
Has Icing been ruled out?
Moderate icing was forecast between 4000-7000 ft.
In the last 3 minutes, the a/c descended out of 4800 ft and crashed at an elevation of 3360 ft. Straight line, stable speed, slow rate of descent, no report of icing.
How far does this rule out icing-related control issues?
Knowing the two pilots involved I am not convinced that they would have ignored any reasonable warnings with regard to terrain or equipment.
looking at the information available, the question that comes to mind is how cold soaked the airframe was before it entered cold visible moisture laden air.
The next question is how this affected a non deiced machine for both control and instrument readings.
The other issue is the unknown situation re the electrical system based on an image of the voltage light.
Again, the aircraft had a engineer on board who knew the machine and its system. Knowing the length and type of flight I suggest it is unlikely that the flight would have been continued if in fact there was an actual charging issue.
The initial accident report is both comprehensive and thorough, but I feel some ' indication ' is required as to the possibility of icing issues being a factor. Of course there is no actual evidence available to confirm or otherwise, but with such a common American airframe there must be information available as to the effects of the onset of icing in a situation where it is not possible to quickly enter a warmer region.
looking at the information available, the question that comes to mind is how cold soaked the airframe was before it entered cold visible moisture laden air.
The next question is how this affected a non deiced machine for both control and instrument readings.
The other issue is the unknown situation re the electrical system based on an image of the voltage light.
Again, the aircraft had a engineer on board who knew the machine and its system. Knowing the length and type of flight I suggest it is unlikely that the flight would have been continued if in fact there was an actual charging issue.
The initial accident report is both comprehensive and thorough, but I feel some ' indication ' is required as to the possibility of icing issues being a factor. Of course there is no actual evidence available to confirm or otherwise, but with such a common American airframe there must be information available as to the effects of the onset of icing in a situation where it is not possible to quickly enter a warmer region.
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Originally Posted by POBJOY
with such a common American airframe there must be information available as to the effects of the onset of icing .
In this case, the aircraft started circling and descending.
In this case, the aircraft werckage was vertical, with the engine buried into the ground.
So it seems to be unusual to experience icing, yet continue a straight flight path, with steady descent, and crash in a normal cruise flight attitude.
