Unlicensed pilot flew plane that crashed, killing 5
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As I understand it, if you're flying for hire and reward you need a commercial licence. Mr Trubshaw (who signed the certificate on my wall that I flew at M2 at 55,000 ft in Concorde in 1974) was flying Concorde for hire and reward; it was his main job to do that, unlike a salesman using an aircraft to go see a client.
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When purely flying as a test pilot, you don't (or didn't) require a commercial licence. I suspect circumstances have probably changed since those days. Most of the early test pilots would have had military experience, but a PPL was all that was needed to test fly civilian aircraft. A commercial licence would only be needed if carrying paying passengers.
Last edited by G0ULI; 26th Sep 2015 at 16:28. Reason: Spelling
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As regards the law and claims against his estate and insurance company - all I can imagine is that the lawyers are going to have a field day - as they identify law after law having being broken, a lack of duty of care to pax, and probably a dozen other reasons to ensure that payouts run into the multi-millions.
I refer to the much publicised crash of Graham Hill and the outcome thereof.
Mr Trubshaw (who signed the certificate on my wall that I flew at M2 at 55,000 ft in Concorde in 1974) was flying Concorde for hire and reward; it was his main job to do that
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One would imagine he would be aware of MTOW - but it does seem to be a regular problem, that even trained and licenced PPL holders are often oblivious to their precise MTOW, and feel that manufacturers figures can be "stretched".
Many , many years ago my father worked for Fairey Air Surveys. and they were commissioned to take photos of the vapour dispersion from power station cooling towers, which involved flying through the vapour clouds. It turned out that none of their pilots were instrument rated, as you normally only take photos of the ground when you can see it !
When purely flying as a test pilot, you don't (or didn't) require a commercial licence. I suspect circumstances have probably changed since those days. Most of the early test pilots would have had military experience, but a PPL was all that was needed to test fly civilian aircraft. A commercial licence would only be needed if carrying paying passengers.
I did go and do a CPL, mostly to cover my backside before the CAA ever asked any difficult questions about the number of flight test reports they'd seen from me that related to my employment. As it happens, it certainly improved the standard of my flying, and for that alone it was worth doing. But I've never actually been told that I absolutely required a CPL for any test flying task I've done: only to separately bill for the flying component.
That said - I've not seen a TP job actually advertised which didn't require a professional licence. I think it's just taken as a given. And also it should be admitted that there are some very competent TPs - generally unpaid - in the light aircraft world, with only PPLs. Well only a PPL, possibly a relevant degree or three, and generally quite a few years of relevant experience to the task.
IIRC, the first Optica fatal crash showed police pilots who had no professional licences either, and that was fairly typical of police flying at the time. I'm certain that police flying now is a great deal more professional in outlook and requirements.
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 27th Sep 2015 at 19:01.
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I am, more's the pity, no Brian Trubshaw - but I did do quite a lot of test flying on a PPL. I took care that I wasn't explicitly being paid as a pilot, but it was arguably a bit of a grey area.
I did go and do a CPL, mostly to cover my backside before the CAA ever asked any difficult questions about the number of flight test reports they'd seen from me that related to my employment. As it happens, it certainly improved the standard of my flying, and for that alone it was worth doing. But I've never actually been told that I absolutely required a CPL for any test flying task I've done: only to separately bill for the flying component.
I did go and do a CPL, mostly to cover my backside before the CAA ever asked any difficult questions about the number of flight test reports they'd seen from me that related to my employment. As it happens, it certainly improved the standard of my flying, and for that alone it was worth doing. But I've never actually been told that I absolutely required a CPL for any test flying task I've done: only to separately bill for the flying component.
As to the original topic, I have known a few pilots who flew with no license. In some cases, they did not have the reading skills to pass the ground school, in other cases, they had lost their medical. Unhappily, a fellow I knew killed himself and another in his MU-2 with no license between them - CFIT which was entirely preventable...
I cannot abide a non licensed pilot taking anyone with them - in either sense of the phrase....
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I have read somewhere than John Travolta used to fly his B707 with a PPL with IR , which was ( still is ?) perfectly legal in the US as long as you do not carry paying passengers apparently.
To come back to the subject of this thread, the unlicenced pilots flying their own homebuilt, this is unfortunately a reality and I would not guess the percentage, but I would say it grows up rather than go down, seen the increasing complexity to obtain and maintain a licence in Europe at least.
It starts by making short circuits around your home runway with the aircraft not fully completed, posponing the "licence bit" further and further.
An anecdote I witnessed a few years ago : a guy I knew , well over 80, was selling his Jodel D112 ( 2 seats, 80 HP) that he built with his son 40 or 50 years before. When the buyer asked how many hours the guy had on it, he replied " I do not know I do not keep track anymore " , you do not keep a logbook ? No said the guy, what for ? I do not have a licence either...nobody ever asked !"
To come back to the subject of this thread, the unlicenced pilots flying their own homebuilt, this is unfortunately a reality and I would not guess the percentage, but I would say it grows up rather than go down, seen the increasing complexity to obtain and maintain a licence in Europe at least.
It starts by making short circuits around your home runway with the aircraft not fully completed, posponing the "licence bit" further and further.
An anecdote I witnessed a few years ago : a guy I knew , well over 80, was selling his Jodel D112 ( 2 seats, 80 HP) that he built with his son 40 or 50 years before. When the buyer asked how many hours the guy had on it, he replied " I do not know I do not keep track anymore " , you do not keep a logbook ? No said the guy, what for ? I do not have a licence either...nobody ever asked !"
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kms901, flying through the vapor of power stations? we used to do that all the time, in gliders....
Seriously, you won't find the thermal over (or descending into) the fat cooling towers. The lift is encountered over the tall narrow chimney and it is advised to avoid breathing in the fumes....no worries, in a couple of turns you can gain 3,000 feet!
Seriously, you won't find the thermal over (or descending into) the fat cooling towers. The lift is encountered over the tall narrow chimney and it is advised to avoid breathing in the fumes....no worries, in a couple of turns you can gain 3,000 feet!
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used to fly his B707 with a PPL with IR
ME, and most importantly a type rating, which is still needed, and takes some effort. His limited him to SIC (part 125 requires a CPL for heavy a/c PIC, regardless if it's a commercial operation or not). There's also stories of PPL pilots gaining a type rating and working as sim instructors...
ME, and most importantly a type rating, which is still needed, and takes some effort. His limited him to SIC (part 125 requires a CPL for heavy a/c PIC, regardless if it's a commercial operation or not). There's also stories of PPL pilots gaining a type rating and working as sim instructors...
Last edited by deptrai; 5th Oct 2015 at 12:42.
Toxicology report
Back to the unfortunate Mr Boatright and his pax, I've read elsewhere that a coroners report including toxicology results is available online. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know my way around US documentation, but all that I can find is the NTSB Preliminary report - anyone able to point me in the right direction?
Brian Trubshaw had been test flying Concorde for some time, before it was discovered that he only had a PPL, and that he was 'given' a CPL to save embarrassment?
"Valid only while the holder is employed as a TEST PILOT by HSA Ltd and for flights made in the course of that employment not being flights for the purpose of Public Transport or Aerial Work and for flights made under the Private Privileges of the licence"
As far as I'm aware, no exams were necessary. (He also held a full UK driving licence, but had never sat a driving test!)
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I have read somewhere than John Travolta used to fly his B707 with a PPL with IR , which was ( still is ?) perfectly legal in the US as long as you do not carry paying passengers apparently.
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The FAA in Orlando, when I presented my UK PPL plus newly minted British Gliding Association instructor rating, gave me a 4 page document (wallet size).
On page One, it said "Commercial Pilot." Page 2 continued the description...
"in gliders.....!" I felt quite chuffed carrying that around and showing it off to my chums. But nobody ever paid me any money for teaching people to fly. They had to pay when I pulled up their glider with my tow plane, which was the only way I could afford to keep it.
On page One, it said "Commercial Pilot." Page 2 continued the description...
"in gliders.....!" I felt quite chuffed carrying that around and showing it off to my chums. But nobody ever paid me any money for teaching people to fly. They had to pay when I pulled up their glider with my tow plane, which was the only way I could afford to keep it.
I believe a number of Test Pilots of that era were gifted a CPL
As I recall, Bryan had never completed a Test Pilot's course. He had been at Farnborough where he had flown the Vulcan Olympus test bed and thence to Bristol and the Concorde.
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I remember something about a crash in Scotland where a drunken pilot left a party for a night flight in a Cessna 150. They found the wreckage but no body which was found miles away after he had fallen out.
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AkaSylvia, that accident was many years ago, probably early 1970s.
Glenforsa accident? It's weirder than that. After drinking in the hotel, the pilot asked the hotel owner to hold a torch on the runway. Pilot took off in dark, wet, night "to check lights". Disappeared. Much later, body found by shepherd, against tree, up hill. Had no injuries from crash, and had not been in salt water. Scallop divers found the aircraft offshore in the Sound of Mull. The pilot was not current.
Aircraft might have been a C172, rented from Oban. I think the owner might have been involved in recovering the Stone of Destiny (stolen by Edward 1) from Westminster Abbey.
Was someone else flying plane when it took off? There was a major drug smuggling operation using Kerrera island near Oban a few years later.
Aircraft might have been a C172, rented from Oban. I think the owner might have been involved in recovering the Stone of Destiny (stolen by Edward 1) from Westminster Abbey.
Was someone else flying plane when it took off? There was a major drug smuggling operation using Kerrera island near Oban a few years later.