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Unlicensed pilot flew plane that crashed, killing 5

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Unlicensed pilot flew plane that crashed, killing 5

Old 26th Sep 2015, 07:04
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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As I understand it, if you're flying for hire and reward you need a commercial licence. Mr Trubshaw (who signed the certificate on my wall that I flew at M2 at 55,000 ft in Concorde in 1974) was flying Concorde for hire and reward; it was his main job to do that, unlike a salesman using an aircraft to go see a client.
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Old 26th Sep 2015, 16:26
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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When purely flying as a test pilot, you don't (or didn't) require a commercial licence. I suspect circumstances have probably changed since those days. Most of the early test pilots would have had military experience, but a PPL was all that was needed to test fly civilian aircraft. A commercial licence would only be needed if carrying paying passengers.

Last edited by G0ULI; 26th Sep 2015 at 16:28. Reason: Spelling
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Old 26th Sep 2015, 19:57
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As regards the law and claims against his estate and insurance company - all I can imagine is that the lawyers are going to have a field day - as they identify law after law having being broken, a lack of duty of care to pax, and probably a dozen other reasons to ensure that payouts run into the multi-millions.
In the UK (and I really cannot see it being different in most Western countries) if he was flying illegally any insurance is automatically void. So his estate will take the hit, assuming any of the passenger's relatives can establish that they were innocent, unknowing victims. If there are payouts they will necessarily be limited by what is recoverable from the pilots estate, following a successful civil action.

I refer to the much publicised crash of Graham Hill and the outcome thereof.
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Old 27th Sep 2015, 03:21
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Mr Trubshaw (who signed the certificate on my wall that I flew at M2 at 55,000 ft in Concorde in 1974) was flying Concorde for hire and reward; it was his main job to do that
What were the circumstances of your flight Capot? A BA/Air France scheduled or charter?
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Old 27th Sep 2015, 07:56
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One would imagine he would be aware of MTOW - but it does seem to be a regular problem, that even trained and licenced PPL holders are often oblivious to their precise MTOW, and feel that manufacturers figures can be "stretched".
I would imagine that extends to a lot of instructors at flying schools with 150/152s as well...
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Old 27th Sep 2015, 14:21
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Many , many years ago my father worked for Fairey Air Surveys. and they were commissioned to take photos of the vapour dispersion from power station cooling towers, which involved flying through the vapour clouds. It turned out that none of their pilots were instrument rated, as you normally only take photos of the ground when you can see it !
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Old 27th Sep 2015, 18:41
  #27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by G0ULI
When purely flying as a test pilot, you don't (or didn't) require a commercial licence. I suspect circumstances have probably changed since those days. Most of the early test pilots would have had military experience, but a PPL was all that was needed to test fly civilian aircraft. A commercial licence would only be needed if carrying paying passengers.
I am, more's the pity, no Brian Trubshaw - but I did do quite a lot of test flying on a PPL. I took care that I wasn't explicitly being paid as a pilot, but it was arguably a bit of a grey area.

I did go and do a CPL, mostly to cover my backside before the CAA ever asked any difficult questions about the number of flight test reports they'd seen from me that related to my employment. As it happens, it certainly improved the standard of my flying, and for that alone it was worth doing. But I've never actually been told that I absolutely required a CPL for any test flying task I've done: only to separately bill for the flying component.

That said - I've not seen a TP job actually advertised which didn't require a professional licence. I think it's just taken as a given. And also it should be admitted that there are some very competent TPs - generally unpaid - in the light aircraft world, with only PPLs. Well only a PPL, possibly a relevant degree or three, and generally quite a few years of relevant experience to the task.

IIRC, the first Optica fatal crash showed police pilots who had no professional licences either, and that was fairly typical of police flying at the time. I'm certain that police flying now is a great deal more professional in outlook and requirements.

G

Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 27th Sep 2015 at 19:01.
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Old 28th Sep 2015, 03:15
  #28 (permalink)  
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I am, more's the pity, no Brian Trubshaw - but I did do quite a lot of test flying on a PPL. I took care that I wasn't explicitly being paid as a pilot, but it was arguably a bit of a grey area.

I did go and do a CPL, mostly to cover my backside before the CAA ever asked any difficult questions about the number of flight test reports they'd seen from me that related to my employment. As it happens, it certainly improved the standard of my flying, and for that alone it was worth doing. But I've never actually been told that I absolutely required a CPL for any test flying task I've done: only to separately bill for the flying component.
This has been exactly my experience too. I was told by the authority that I was "expected" to hold a CPL, so I did, but they had trouble pointing to exactly the regulation which required it. I could not raise an argument against it anyway.

As to the original topic, I have known a few pilots who flew with no license. In some cases, they did not have the reading skills to pass the ground school, in other cases, they had lost their medical. Unhappily, a fellow I knew killed himself and another in his MU-2 with no license between them - CFIT which was entirely preventable...

I cannot abide a non licensed pilot taking anyone with them - in either sense of the phrase....
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Old 29th Sep 2015, 05:53
  #29 (permalink)  
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I have read somewhere than John Travolta used to fly his B707 with a PPL with IR , which was ( still is ?) perfectly legal in the US as long as you do not carry paying passengers apparently.

To come back to the subject of this thread, the unlicenced pilots flying their own homebuilt, this is unfortunately a reality and I would not guess the percentage, but I would say it grows up rather than go down, seen the increasing complexity to obtain and maintain a licence in Europe at least.
It starts by making short circuits around your home runway with the aircraft not fully completed, posponing the "licence bit" further and further.

An anecdote I witnessed a few years ago : a guy I knew , well over 80, was selling his Jodel D112 ( 2 seats, 80 HP) that he built with his son 40 or 50 years before. When the buyer asked how many hours the guy had on it, he replied " I do not know I do not keep track anymore " , you do not keep a logbook ? No said the guy, what for ? I do not have a licence either...nobody ever asked !"
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Old 29th Sep 2015, 06:13
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kms901, flying through the vapor of power stations? we used to do that all the time, in gliders....

Seriously, you won't find the thermal over (or descending into) the fat cooling towers. The lift is encountered over the tall narrow chimney and it is advised to avoid breathing in the fumes....no worries, in a couple of turns you can gain 3,000 feet!
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Old 5th Oct 2015, 12:15
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used to fly his B707 with a PPL with IR

ME, and most importantly a type rating, which is still needed, and takes some effort. His limited him to SIC (part 125 requires a CPL for heavy a/c PIC, regardless if it's a commercial operation or not). There's also stories of PPL pilots gaining a type rating and working as sim instructors...

Last edited by deptrai; 5th Oct 2015 at 12:42.
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Old 26th Oct 2015, 08:28
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Toxicology report

Back to the unfortunate Mr Boatright and his pax, I've read elsewhere that a coroners report including toxicology results is available online. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know my way around US documentation, but all that I can find is the NTSB Preliminary report - anyone able to point me in the right direction?
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Old 26th Oct 2015, 11:39
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Brian Trubshaw had been test flying Concorde for some time, before it was discovered that he only had a PPL, and that he was 'given' a CPL to save embarrassment?
I believe a number of Test Pilots of that era were gifted a CPL. Coincidentally enough, I was recently sorting through some of my late father's paperwork, and found his CPL that was issued by the UK CAA in 1976. Page one is stamped RESTRICTED, and page two has the following LIMITATIONS:-

"Valid only while the holder is employed as a TEST PILOT by HSA Ltd and for flights made in the course of that employment not being flights for the purpose of Public Transport or Aerial Work and for flights made under the Private Privileges of the licence"

As far as I'm aware, no exams were necessary. (He also held a full UK driving licence, but had never sat a driving test!)
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Old 26th Oct 2015, 14:15
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I have read somewhere than John Travolta used to fly his B707 with a PPL with IR , which was ( still is ?) perfectly legal in the US as long as you do not carry paying passengers apparently.
Perfectly legal in most countries including the UK, you just need the type rating and any relevant exams (pressurisation/jet engines etc. etc.) plus of course the cash and, if you are going to use it, access to a suitable aircraft - you could, in theory, given enough money, buy a Concord, restore it and get the rating to fly it on a PPL - the test papers will probably be going at bit yellow round the edges by now!
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Old 26th Oct 2015, 16:27
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The FAA in Orlando, when I presented my UK PPL plus newly minted British Gliding Association instructor rating, gave me a 4 page document (wallet size).

On page One, it said "Commercial Pilot." Page 2 continued the description...
"in gliders.....!" I felt quite chuffed carrying that around and showing it off to my chums. But nobody ever paid me any money for teaching people to fly. They had to pay when I pulled up their glider with my tow plane, which was the only way I could afford to keep it.
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Old 27th Oct 2015, 02:29
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I believe a number of Test Pilots of that era were gifted a CPL
Brian Trubshaw was issued both a CPL and ATPL. Need better eyes than mine to read the detail, and may very well have had the limitations noted by spekesoftly re his Father. Trubshaw only had the one employer post RAF.

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Old 24th Nov 2015, 15:39
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As I recall, Bryan had never completed a Test Pilot's course. He had been at Farnborough where he had flown the Vulcan Olympus test bed and thence to Bristol and the Concorde.
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Old 30th Nov 2015, 23:35
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I remember something about a crash in Scotland where a drunken pilot left a party for a night flight in a Cessna 150. They found the wreckage but no body which was found miles away after he had fallen out.
I would love to find this case. Any other details? Too many Cessna 150s in Scotland to search on!
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Old 1st Dec 2015, 08:01
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AkaSylvia, that accident was many years ago, probably early 1970s.
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Old 1st Dec 2015, 10:42
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Glenforsa accident? It's weirder than that. After drinking in the hotel, the pilot asked the hotel owner to hold a torch on the runway. Pilot took off in dark, wet, night "to check lights". Disappeared. Much later, body found by shepherd, against tree, up hill. Had no injuries from crash, and had not been in salt water. Scallop divers found the aircraft offshore in the Sound of Mull. The pilot was not current.
Aircraft might have been a C172, rented from Oban. I think the owner might have been involved in recovering the Stone of Destiny (stolen by Edward 1) from Westminster Abbey.
Was someone else flying plane when it took off? There was a major drug smuggling operation using Kerrera island near Oban a few years later.
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