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Hawker Hunter down at Shoreham

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Hawker Hunter down at Shoreham

Old 22nd Aug 2015, 21:34
  #61 (permalink)  
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Appeal been sent for any video of the incident to email to [email protected]
Mods can you create a sticky for the email addr please maybe
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 21:45
  #62 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Squawk Ident
After the second accident (all pilots ejected and survived to both crashes) new safety rules were elected at Le Bourget to establish a minimal security height never to be trespassed during demonstrations.
What was doing this aircraft here and at this altitude for this kind of manoeuvring is rather astonishing.
We have plenty of air show safety rules in the UK also thanks. A high speed flight along the runway followed by a pull up for a loop should be pretty safe...obviously something went wrong and I bet very similar manoeuvres are done at similar heights at French air shows.
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 22:32
  #63 (permalink)  
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Flap was indeed used for manoeuvring at low speed, but at high speed the pitch down moment could exceed the elevator authority to pitch up. It was something that was stressed in air combat training.
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 22:49
  #64 (permalink)  
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BBC reporting pilot survived, but critical, (last second ejection perhaps?)
Says actual crash point was in the trees, just left of the road, so the burning car was prob hit by debris and fireball. App the pilot was an ex-Harrier jockey and qualified display pilot for type.
Let's leave speculations asto cause to AAIB.
Bournemouth game was delayed by 15 mins 'because of nearby Airshow and booked Vulcan just did a flypast Salute, not the anticipated full display.
Very reminiscent of private Spitfire that pancaked in after completing a loop, at BAe Woodford Airshow many years ago.
The dead deserve our respect but the injured survivors require our support!

PS looked more like a half reverse Cuban 8, not a 'loop the loop' to me, perfectly acceptable for a display 'box' IMO.
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 22:54
  #65 (permalink)  
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Nick H: Yes it is normal and the aircraft was perfectly capable (vintage or new) - something went wrong.
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 23:08
  #66 (permalink)  
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Seagull2200 - good post, well said.

One thought here, where I was today 60 miles north of Shoreham it was 29C.
Now, if you had been practicing loops through most of this summer it barely got above 23C. So there might just be a performance aspect to this tragic event.
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 23:32
  #67 (permalink)  
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staplefordheli, I was there today, really tragic, as far as video appeal is concerned, "Just Planes" video were videoing for the official DVD in full HD and captured the whole thing professionally from all their cameras that were mounted on high platforms. I'm sure they will have handed the footage to the authorities.
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Old 22nd Aug 2015, 23:42
  #68 (permalink)  
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Aircraft age

I think the most utterly ridiculous thing I've read all day is textual diahorrea against doing aerobatics in 'vintage' or whatever term aircraft. Wow it surpassed some political nonsense on Facebook and that's saying something.

Sure there's an element of risk involved in simply flying any aircraft, there are also handling nuances, and that is true of any type regardless of its age. There are doubtless lessons that can be learned from the utterly tragic accident today (which is true of any flight regardless of the outcome).

Providing an aircraft is maintained and within its fatigue limits they don't simply die of old age. Maybe there are things that can be done to prevent this in the future, but I might remind those of you with an a it mentality of the following:

Airshows are traditionally the second most popular pastime in the UK; The first (of which I'm not particularly fond) is soccer. If you're old enough, you may recall that 96 spectators were killed at a match but soccer matches were not banned, I wonder if anywhere close to that number have been killed at air shows even if you count non aircraft accident spectator deaths and those of aircrew, I certainly know that the deaths of people on the ground is exceptional for a very long time.

I don't know how many of you fly regularly but it's pretty difficult to never fly over a road especially in the vicinity of an airport. What we have here is a departure from controlled flight (it crashed) so exactly what geographic feature was underneath is pot luck, sadly the statistical outcome was so much worse in this case, but it was away from the crowd line as required.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 01:26
  #69 (permalink)  
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Apart from the obvious economic obstacles, performing over the ocean where haze and fog often obscure the horizon line seems much more difficult to me.
I remember a USN F-18 air show loss for this reason in Toronto, where Lake Ontario provided the arena.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 01:31
  #70 (permalink)  
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Side angle view

It seems he missed the field by just a few hundred meters, perhaps, literally landing on top of two cars and clipping the back of one other, then skidding off the road.
A fourth car was also hit.

This wide angle side view shows the angle of descent in the last few seconds.



Last edited by mickjoebill; 23rd Aug 2015 at 02:30.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 02:34
  #71 (permalink)  
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Nick H & those with similar mindset-
Just ask BBMF and Vulcan XH558 (shortly to lose airworthiness Cert) pilots why they prefer to fly displays rather than stay at home and mow the lawn?
For all participants,inc most spectators, aircraft are only 'alive' when flying.
Specificallysk any airline passenger who ignores pre-flight safety briefing if they are happy to entrust their survival to a poss 25 year old 'cigar tube' and proficient flight crew
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 03:53
  #72 (permalink)  
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I thought the displays had to include an element of safety and after the loss of the Mk14 Spit back in the early 1990s there was a lean towards Immelmanns over loops and display pilots sticking to doing their routines.
Cant believe the CAA authorised that.
"Impress the knowledgable, amaze the ignorant and scare nobody"
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 03:58
  #73 (permalink)  
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Appeal been sent for any video of the incident to email to [email protected]
Air Accidents should be investigated by the AAIB (or national equivalent) and not by the police, unless there is a strong hint of criminal wrongdoings.

Condolences to all involved.

@HS125: your football analogy hits the mark but still I am afraid this might result in further restrictions to airshows and of course it could increase sponsors/partners' involved in keeping old expensive gear aloft reluctance to keep their hands in the antique aircraft operation.

I have seen a Bücker 131 end a loop a few feet below ground level at Hannover Airshow as a kid, hurting no one and (I believe) with the pilot surviving, but it's a sickening sight when you start to feel that a loop is not going to work out.....
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 05:09
  #74 (permalink)  
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Seems clear that such manoeuvres should be done over the airfield and not over a busy road which needlessly puts people's lives at risk.

With such a loss of life we could ask if there is a criminal negligence on the part of the air show.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 06:09
  #75 (permalink)  
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F4 Abingdon 1988
Having been there and watched the Abingdon crash from a very close distance I can't help but see some similarities in the footage that is all over the news this morning.
The difference was that with one exception of a guy waiting to cross the runway who got the fright of his life, almost all the wreckage (except one engine?) was within the airfield and we avoided this terrible scenario.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 06:16
  #76 (permalink)  
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At least seven people who presumably had nothing to do with the display are dead. Under those circumstances it seems reasonable to question it in the way that Sandy does. The difference between the football disasters and this is that those were spectators, these were totally unconnected drivers and passengers. I have to say pilot error looks the strongest possibility here.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 06:27
  #77 (permalink)  
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We all realise there is an element of risk in aerobatic flying and this type of air display, as with many other entertainments.
If you buy a ticket to attend, or maybe don’t buy a ticket but choose to view from a public place or even to view by stopping (trespassing) on a public footpath, then you accept that risk.
However, in this case it appears that most who sadly lost their lives were simply going about their lawful business.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 06:34
  #78 (permalink)  
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On some of the photographs there are people standing at the junction where the accident happened that would appear to be watching the show. We do not know whether those hurt and injured where in the area for the airshow or not. They may have been, or they may not have been.

What we do know is it is the first incident for many years that has caused a significant loss of life, and that it will be investigated thoroughly and no doubt rules changed.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 06:35
  #79 (permalink)  
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Why are posters saying that displays shouldn't be over roads ? How do you get to an airfield without using a road ?

Remember too that many airfields started life well away from any urbanisation, then .... people moved close to the said airfield, and ..... tried to close the airfield !!!

Southern England is crowded, I'll be surprised if the Hunter could complete any aerobatic manoeuvre that doesn't pass over perimeter roads ?

Very sad, condolences to all.
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Old 23rd Aug 2015, 06:41
  #80 (permalink)  
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Southern England is crowded, I'll be surprised if the Hunter could complete any aerobatic manoeuvre that doesn't pass over perimeter roads ?
Very sad indeed. Let's hope Andy makes a recovery in time.

At Shoreham at least, the display line could surely be the beach, with spectators on the shore line.
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