Helios Crash
BUMP
Finally got my reply from my MP.
The Minister for Europe at the Foreign & Commonwealth Office has also written to me via my MP. It seems the F&CO has no clout but has been made aware of Mr Irwin's plight.
It doesn't really address the nub of the problem but at least my elected representatives are showing some effort.
We will see.
The Minister for Europe at the Foreign & Commonwealth Office has also written to me via my MP. It seems the F&CO has no clout but has been made aware of Mr Irwin's plight.
It doesn't really address the nub of the problem but at least my elected representatives are showing some effort.
We will see.
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Judges Reasoning
It is time for all engineers to take action before they find themselves in prison.
The Greek judge has has given her reasons for banging up Alan Irwin for 123 years and has set the precendent that an engineer is responsible for configuring an aircraft for flight:
"Furthermore, the Court did not accept the arguments of the defendant that it was the pilot’s sole responsibility to set the switch to the AUTO position, because the pilots have a number of obligations that are also obligations of the engineer."
The reasoning is 400 pages of similar ill informed rubbish which will probably not get a public airing. Maybe someone should 'name and shame' her for putting aviation safety back 100 years.
How about boycotting all aircraft going into Greek airspace or belonging to Greek operators for a start.
The Greek judge has has given her reasons for banging up Alan Irwin for 123 years and has set the precendent that an engineer is responsible for configuring an aircraft for flight:
"Furthermore, the Court did not accept the arguments of the defendant that it was the pilot’s sole responsibility to set the switch to the AUTO position, because the pilots have a number of obligations that are also obligations of the engineer."
The reasoning is 400 pages of similar ill informed rubbish which will probably not get a public airing. Maybe someone should 'name and shame' her for putting aviation safety back 100 years.
How about boycotting all aircraft going into Greek airspace or belonging to Greek operators for a start.
What an absolute 
this sentence is. No wonder the Greeks are in such a mess if this is an indication of things.
Greece, you should be royally ashamed of yourself, take two demerits and leave the EU immediately!
this sentence is. No wonder the Greeks are in such a mess if this is an indication of things.Greece, you should be royally ashamed of yourself, take two demerits and leave the EU immediately!
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The only up side to this seems to be that the Greeks like Turkeys voting for Christmas have put them selfs on a position that is going to result in them being kicked out of the EEC, so no more EEC arrest warrant, this should put a UK court between Mr Irwin and a Greek jail.
I am of the opinion that this court judgment simply shows that the Greeks are unfit to be a part of the EEC as the legal system fails to understand the complex nature of these modern technical cases and reverts to a stance of jailing the nearest person they can find in an effort to look like they are doing something.
I am of the opinion that this court judgment simply shows that the Greeks are unfit to be a part of the EEC as the legal system fails to understand the complex nature of these modern technical cases and reverts to a stance of jailing the nearest person they can find in an effort to look like they are doing something.
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Yes I believe engineers should leave all the controls in the "normal position"!
So when an aircraft is handed to me by an engineer I will expect the following;
Throttle levers at cruise,
QNH set to 1013,
gear selected UP,
Oh and the pressurisation SET! That should blow your hair back when you open the door!
After all that is the "normal position" isn't it?
Normal - is a relative term. Normal pressurisation at ground level (where the engineer works) is OFF.
If a switch is in a cockpit then it is there for the Pilot(s) to operate, not the engineer. If the switch was in the engine nacelle (where the pilot can't reach) then it would be the engineers responsibility!
So when an aircraft is handed to me by an engineer I will expect the following;
Throttle levers at cruise,
QNH set to 1013,
gear selected UP,
Oh and the pressurisation SET! That should blow your hair back when you open the door!
After all that is the "normal position" isn't it?
Normal - is a relative term. Normal pressurisation at ground level (where the engineer works) is OFF.
If a switch is in a cockpit then it is there for the Pilot(s) to operate, not the engineer. If the switch was in the engine nacelle (where the pilot can't reach) then it would be the engineers responsibility!
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A Gem from the Judge
The problem with you guys is that you don't speak Greek like real engineers!
Another little gem:
"Al*****los also testified that the door can open with 1.1 differential pressure"
He has to be right because he is Greek (and evidently very strong!)
.
Another little gem:
"Al*****los also testified that the door can open with 1.1 differential pressure"
He has to be right because he is Greek (and evidently very strong!)
.
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GCS16
Your thinking makes perfect sense to anyone in the aviation business but to a Greek judge who is looking for a head on a platter the only thing that makes any sense is the opportunity to pit the blame on the person standing nearest to the incident, if that person happens to not be Greek so much the better!
The Greek government has been proved to be corrupt from top to bottom, the way they entered the Euro is an example of this, so why should we be so suprized when a Greek court hands down a judgment that totally ignores international law, proper investigation procedure and factual evidence.
The Greek government has been proved to be corrupt from top to bottom, the way they entered the Euro is an example of this, so why should we be so suprized when a Greek court hands down a judgment that totally ignores international law, proper investigation procedure and factual evidence.
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Helios crash
A timely reminder of a previous Greek Tragedy.... the 2001 conviction by a Hellenic court of 12 Brit plane spotters on spying charges. The moral of the story is whether you fly them, fix them or watch them, in Greek airspace watch your six.
Greek Legal System
Curious that you are found guilty in Greece for complying with the AMM... So much for jurisprudence. I manufacture flight critical products for the civil and defence industries. There are a number of countries that I preclude sale or use of these products in. The list just got one longer.
Greece has the legal system they deserve, as well as the Government to match. The question is whether the industry has the fortitude to again black ban Greece and flight operations into Greece or out of Greece due to the fact that they have shown they cannot be trusted with accounting, application of law, in fact anything outside of the eating (and probably fabrication of) Souvlaki.
IFALPA needs to react, to at least show solidarity, lord knows ICAO, EASA don't.
Greece has the legal system they deserve, as well as the Government to match. The question is whether the industry has the fortitude to again black ban Greece and flight operations into Greece or out of Greece due to the fact that they have shown they cannot be trusted with accounting, application of law, in fact anything outside of the eating (and probably fabrication of) Souvlaki.
IFALPA needs to react, to at least show solidarity, lord knows ICAO, EASA don't.
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"in fact anything outside of the eating (and probably fabrication of) Souvlaki"
this is uncalled-for. I've worked on legal cases ( and in one case an aviation legal case ) involving both Greece and Portugal and out of all the EU countries I've had the largest problems with those two. These are countries with legal and governmental problems, but also in my experience of hospitable and generous people, and I don't see why this kind of abuse is called for.
this is uncalled-for. I've worked on legal cases ( and in one case an aviation legal case ) involving both Greece and Portugal and out of all the EU countries I've had the largest problems with those two. These are countries with legal and governmental problems, but also in my experience of hospitable and generous people, and I don't see why this kind of abuse is called for.
Last edited by 1960sPAX; 21st Jul 2012 at 20:36.
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Greek Legal system
Now now Fdr let`s not kick a dog when its down, after all just as we cannot put the blame on the Wright Bros. for all those nasty air crashes we cannot equally blame Mr.Archimides for the sinking of the Titanic now can we.
Forgive an intrusion from an unqualified observer - but if Mr Irwin was not in breach of any published procedures, work instructions, authorisations, etc, then does this judgement put engineers working on any aircraft that might have an accident in Greece in exactly the same position?
Have any airlines' legal departments been looking at the ramifications for their own operations? Or have any engineers within those airlines expressed their concerns to management?
And I bet people are asking whether their employers have legal assistance insurance cover!
Have any airlines' legal departments been looking at the ramifications for their own operations? Or have any engineers within those airlines expressed their concerns to management?
And I bet people are asking whether their employers have legal assistance insurance cover!
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Letter to MP
I have just received the reply to the letter I sent to my MP on this subject, it is clear that the Forieign & commonwealth office are well aware of this case.
They are also insistent that the UK can't block a European arrest warrant despite the fact that the judgment flys in the face of both EEC and UN mandates on the subject of using accident investigation data in criminal procicutions.
What I do however read between the lines is that the UK and other states in the EEC are more than a little unhappy with the legal process in this case and are putting diplomatic pressure on the Greeks to review this case in the light of the evidence that they clearly failed to understand the first time around.
I also think that the Greeks are truly baffled by the fact that there has been so much interest in the case, as far as they were concerned they had banged up someone so the case was closed.............and now they find themselfs at the sharp end of a lot of very well directed criticism and they now have to find a face saving way out or things will just get worse for them.
I can only urge all of you to write to your MP's as each letter puts just a little more pressure on the F & C office, and that will in turn be felt in Athens.
It would also be helpfully if those not in the UK made representations to their Euro MP's as the Greek problem is not just a UK problem but one the whole of Europe needs to get a grip of.
They are also insistent that the UK can't block a European arrest warrant despite the fact that the judgment flys in the face of both EEC and UN mandates on the subject of using accident investigation data in criminal procicutions.
What I do however read between the lines is that the UK and other states in the EEC are more than a little unhappy with the legal process in this case and are putting diplomatic pressure on the Greeks to review this case in the light of the evidence that they clearly failed to understand the first time around.
I also think that the Greeks are truly baffled by the fact that there has been so much interest in the case, as far as they were concerned they had banged up someone so the case was closed.............and now they find themselfs at the sharp end of a lot of very well directed criticism and they now have to find a face saving way out or things will just get worse for them.
I can only urge all of you to write to your MP's as each letter puts just a little more pressure on the F & C office, and that will in turn be felt in Athens.
It would also be helpfully if those not in the UK made representations to their Euro MP's as the Greek problem is not just a UK problem but one the whole of Europe needs to get a grip of.
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letter to MP
I cannot see how further letters to MP`s will help the hapless Mr. Irwin.
On 13 May 2009 the Hon member for Mid Beds, Nadine Davies brought Mr. Irwin`s case before the House for debate. Mr.David Hanson responded on behalf of the Ministry of Justice.
I would suggest all those interested in furthering Mr.Irwin`s cause read the full text of the debate. This can be found at the following link, Columns 280WH - 287WH. It is most enlightening.
House of Commons Hansard Debates for 13 May 2009 (pt 0010)
On 13 May 2009 the Hon member for Mid Beds, Nadine Davies brought Mr. Irwin`s case before the House for debate. Mr.David Hanson responded on behalf of the Ministry of Justice.
I would suggest all those interested in furthering Mr.Irwin`s cause read the full text of the debate. This can be found at the following link, Columns 280WH - 287WH. It is most enlightening.
House of Commons Hansard Debates for 13 May 2009 (pt 0010)
Even if Mr. Irwin had left the selector in manual, which he did not, it is a basic principle in aviation that an aircraft engineer is never responsible for configuring an aircraft for flight: this is the sole responsibility of the flight crew, as part of their pre-flight checks, and the ultimate responsibility rests with the captain.
Having read the report posted by Chronus I can only conclude that, as usual, the engineer will be shafted again!
If I am ever put in the same position as Mr Irwin (Gawd forbid) I for one will have one thing to say to the AAIB...
"No Comment"
I am rapidly losing any faith I may have had in the justice system.
I am rapidly losing any faith I may have had in the justice system.
That was exactly why I posed my question above - any engineers whose aircraft subsequently crash in Greece can presumably be dragged away on an EU arrest warrant and tried in the same fashion as Mr Irwin, while the UK government looks on impotently. I presume that airlines have considered that and are content with the legal basis of their engineering operations...
Last edited by Easy Street; 23rd Jul 2012 at 22:54.
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Originally Posted by Easy Street
any engineers whose aircraft subsequently crash in Greece can presumably be dragged away on an EU arrest warrant and tried in the same fashion as Mr Irwin, while the UK government looks on impotently.
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justice system
Easy Street my point is not just that British Justice cannot help, it is also:
Cum Romanum venio, ieiuno Sabbato; cum hic sum, non ieiuno: sic etiam tu, ad quam forte ecclesiam veneris, eius morem serva, si cuiquam non vis esse scandalum nec quemquam tibi.
To save the trouble of rummaging through old Latin proverbs, it means when in Rome ......
Over the years I wonder how many expats have had a bitter taste of this.
Cum Romanum venio, ieiuno Sabbato; cum hic sum, non ieiuno: sic etiam tu, ad quam forte ecclesiam veneris, eius morem serva, si cuiquam non vis esse scandalum nec quemquam tibi.
To save the trouble of rummaging through old Latin proverbs, it means when in Rome ......
Over the years I wonder how many expats have had a bitter taste of this.