Adam Air B737-400 fatal crash January 2007
If I remember correctly, in case of an IRS failure, one of the consequences is....WX FAIL.
I also recall that an Adam Air landed at a wild airport because they had an IRS failure before.
I also recall that an Adam Air landed at a wild airport because they had an IRS failure before.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again - don't fly on any Indonesian carrier, including Garuda, if you fancy your life. As long as corruption is as endemic as it is, their airlines will never be safe and their DGAC will never exercise proper oversight. Be very aware.
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SIDSTAR,
Well, I fly them all the time... but I do have ones I avoid...
So if you ever come down here, take the bus or the ferry or the train or the car, where the chances of you getting in an accident is significantly higher...
I fly them because I have no choice... and even if there were, I'd still choose the locals but without the cowboys...
*grin*
PK-KAR
Well, I fly them all the time... but I do have ones I avoid...
So if you ever come down here, take the bus or the ferry or the train or the car, where the chances of you getting in an accident is significantly higher...
I fly them because I have no choice... and even if there were, I'd still choose the locals but without the cowboys...
*grin*
PK-KAR
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Any Updates?
Are there any updates on this saga? It has been almost 6 months since the black boxes were recovered - surely enough time to complete an analysis.
But the issue has gone very quiet.
But the issue has gone very quiet.
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Nothing public yet. But I hear it's a severe Inertial malfunction, in weather, loss of attitude orientation, with the A/P still engaged on single IRU and no one was flying the aircraft as they were trying reconfirm their positions... possibly no NAVs were tuned (hey that's what happened in the Tambolaka 400NM wandering excursion)... whether that is true or not, I guess we'll have to see if the report is going to be released or not... the above is based in info leaks so far. The leak also said the aircraft started a slow bank to the right and ended up over vertical... 
If this sounds surprising, about 1 - 2 months ago, an Adam Air captain was overheard asking his first officer on how does one notice an engine failure on take off (and in a genuinely clueless tone).
If this sounds surprising, about 1 - 2 months ago, an Adam Air captain was overheard asking his first officer on how does one notice an engine failure on take off (and in a genuinely clueless tone).
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PK-KAR
1) IRU toppled in severe wx/single IRU remaining - the standby attitude is an electric gyro is it not?
2) Question about how to identify an engine failure on takeoff - surely this is a wind up?????
1) IRU toppled in severe wx/single IRU remaining - the standby attitude is an electric gyro is it not?
2) Question about how to identify an engine failure on takeoff - surely this is a wind up?????
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Gengis,
Re. #1... Indeed it is, but then, that's useless if the crew didn't realize that their individual ADIs are no longer reliable. The sad thing is, more than a few doesn't know that the IRU gives orientation data to the SG then to their ADI as well as POS input to FMC... and that the A/P takes the orientation (incl. heading) from the IRU... A/P on single IRU is a no-no... going into IMC on a single IRU is also a no-no... but this accident isn't the first or the last time an Adam Air crew did the same thing... training short cut is likely to be a contributory factor.
Re. #2... As far as I am told it was a genuine question posed by the capt to his f/o... this is an airline with a history of training short cuts, hey, they even let someone continue flying after being caught out not doing checklists... and still let him fly after 1 take off with no checklist ended up with a zero electrics dive recover at 500' AGL and a flapless landing. These types of jokers are in a minority in Adam Air, but the problem is, they still exist!
PK-KAR
Re. #1... Indeed it is, but then, that's useless if the crew didn't realize that their individual ADIs are no longer reliable. The sad thing is, more than a few doesn't know that the IRU gives orientation data to the SG then to their ADI as well as POS input to FMC... and that the A/P takes the orientation (incl. heading) from the IRU... A/P on single IRU is a no-no... going into IMC on a single IRU is also a no-no... but this accident isn't the first or the last time an Adam Air crew did the same thing... training short cut is likely to be a contributory factor.
Re. #2... As far as I am told it was a genuine question posed by the capt to his f/o... this is an airline with a history of training short cuts, hey, they even let someone continue flying after being caught out not doing checklists... and still let him fly after 1 take off with no checklist ended up with a zero electrics dive recover at 500' AGL and a flapless landing. These types of jokers are in a minority in Adam Air, but the problem is, they still exist!
PK-KAR
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Releasing Report
PK-KAR,
Thanks for the update.
Who controls whether a report is released or not? I presume in this case, the Indonesian authorities.
I am surprised to hear that there is some doubt as to whether the release of the report is going to happen. My (obviously mistaken) understanding is that all major aircraft crash reports are made public, or at least the major salient points are divulged to the media. Given so many people from so many countries generally perish in these accidents, it's no wonder why.
Thanks for the update.
whether that is true or not, I guess we'll have to see if the report is going to be released or not
I am surprised to hear that there is some doubt as to whether the release of the report is going to happen. My (obviously mistaken) understanding is that all major aircraft crash reports are made public, or at least the major salient points are divulged to the media. Given so many people from so many countries generally perish in these accidents, it's no wonder why.
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AdamAir 737 accident report published
http://www.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/aaic.htm
Lost on 1 Jan 2007; Crew became focussed on apparent IRS failure, failed to recover from UA correctly before structural failure.
Lost on 1 Jan 2007; Crew became focussed on apparent IRS failure, failed to recover from UA correctly before structural failure.
Last edited by MikeAlphaTangoTango; 25th Mar 2008 at 06:33.
Here´s the news as reported by Xinhua news agency:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_7855402.htm
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_7855402.htm
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FX Guru
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According to the Reuters report the plane had 154 recurring defects related to the navigation system in the two months before the crash.
With what's left of their fleet grounded (over half their planes have been seized due to non-payment of debts to the leasing firm), one assumes this is the end for Adam Air.
Probably not a bad thing.
With what's left of their fleet grounded (over half their planes have been seized due to non-payment of debts to the leasing firm), one assumes this is the end for Adam Air.
Probably not a bad thing.
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Originally Posted by angels
According to the Reuters report the plane had 154 recurring defects related to the navigation system in the two months before the crash.
Most of the press could not interpret accident reports.
Originally Posted by accident report
...
· PIC's vertical speed indicator malfunctions (52 write-ups).
· Left/right inertial reference system anomalies (51 write-ups).
· Illumination of flight data recorder inoperative light (14 write-ups).
· Autopilot A disengage (4 write-ups).
· Weather radar unreliable (2 write-ups).
· Left flight director unserviceable (2 write-ups).
...
· PIC's vertical speed indicator malfunctions (52 write-ups).
· Left/right inertial reference system anomalies (51 write-ups).
· Illumination of flight data recorder inoperative light (14 write-ups).
· Autopilot A disengage (4 write-ups).
· Weather radar unreliable (2 write-ups).
· Left flight director unserviceable (2 write-ups).
...
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Humble SLF with potentially stupid question alert..
How serious a problem was the IRS failure? The report describes the situation the pilots were trying to resolve as 'stressful' (p97 of the PDF, page '83' by the numbering). Was this a problem that was perilous for the safe outcome of the flight, or merely an inconvenience?
JBS
How serious a problem was the IRS failure? The report describes the situation the pilots were trying to resolve as 'stressful' (p97 of the PDF, page '83' by the numbering). Was this a problem that was perilous for the safe outcome of the flight, or merely an inconvenience?
JBS
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IRU feeds Attitude (Artificial Horizon) Indicator
Reading this AAR smacks of so many upset cases over decades, here are some excerpts:
= = = \/ = = = EXCERPT AAR pg 49+ = = = \/ = = =
“… During cruise, the pilot in command (PIC) and copilot became preoccupied with the aircraft’s Inertial Reference System (IRS) and associated failures of the flight and navigation instruments.
The pilots devoted their attention to resolving the apparent anomalies with the IRS for up to 28 minutes prior to switching the number-2 IRS Mode Selector Unit to ATT (Attitude). Initially, they were concerned that one of the Inertial Reference Unit’s (IRU) had failed, and they attempted to identify the problem. … Both pilots became fully engrossed with identifying the problem and attempts at corrective actions for at least the last 13 minutes of the flight, with minimal regard to other flight requirements.
The DFDR showed that the aircraft was in cruise with the autopilot engaged at FL350. The autopilot was holding 5 degrees left aileron to maintain wings level flight. Following the crew’s selection of the IRS Mode Selector Unit to Attitude mode, the autopilot disengaged.
When ATT (Attitude) was selected in the number-2 IRS Mode Selector Unit, it resulted in the autopilot disengaging. The effect on the copilot’s electronic attitude display indicator (EADI) of switching from NAV to ATT was that the following displays were lost …
With the autopilot disengaged, the control wheel (aileron) centered and the aircraft began a slow roll to the right. Although the roll rate was momentarily arrested several times, the pilot did not begin to recover the roll attitude until the aircraft had reached a bank angle of 100 degrees, with the pitch attitude approaching 60 degrees aircraft nose down. At that point the aircraft had already accelerated past Mmo (0.82) and was reaching dive Mach number of 0.89. The overspeed warning activated at Mach 0.82. After the autopilot disengaged and the aircraft exceeded 30 degrees right bank, the pilots appeared to have become spatially disoriented.
The DFDR revealed that after the aircraft reached a dive Mach number of 0.89, the pilot began to roll the aircraft towards wings level, using a bank angle of less than 20 degrees (aileron). During this roll, the pilot pulled nose-up elevator in excess of 2gs of force. The g forces eventually reached 3.5gs as the Mach number reached a maximum of 0.926. The 3.5g force and Mach 0.926 airspeed are beyond the designed limitations …
The recorded airspeed exceeded Vdive (400 kcas), and reached a maximum of approximately 490 kcas just prior to the end of recording. At an altitude of approximately 12,000 feet, the normal load factor suddenly and rapidly reversed from around positive 3.5g to negative 2.8g.
The Boeing analysis suggested that:
This sudden change in load factor is an indication that the airplane has suffered a significant structural failure. The condition of 3.5g’s at 495 knots is well beyond the certified flight maneuvering envelope for generating loads for structural design and outside the envelope ...
= = = /\ = = = END excerpt = = = /\ = = =
This is a typical jet upset, yawXroll=dive; subtle entry, DIVE, increased IAS yield G's, maybe pilot pulls more back-stick to counter IAS .... Sometimes they impact; sometimes inflight break-up, sometimes a recovery (Captain Lynch and Captain Gibson).
OK, so where are you guys who claimed that SlikAir could ONLY have been an intentional entry??
= = = \/ = = = EXCERPT AAR pg 49+ = = = \/ = = =
“… During cruise, the pilot in command (PIC) and copilot became preoccupied with the aircraft’s Inertial Reference System (IRS) and associated failures of the flight and navigation instruments.
The pilots devoted their attention to resolving the apparent anomalies with the IRS for up to 28 minutes prior to switching the number-2 IRS Mode Selector Unit to ATT (Attitude). Initially, they were concerned that one of the Inertial Reference Unit’s (IRU) had failed, and they attempted to identify the problem. … Both pilots became fully engrossed with identifying the problem and attempts at corrective actions for at least the last 13 minutes of the flight, with minimal regard to other flight requirements.
The DFDR showed that the aircraft was in cruise with the autopilot engaged at FL350. The autopilot was holding 5 degrees left aileron to maintain wings level flight. Following the crew’s selection of the IRS Mode Selector Unit to Attitude mode, the autopilot disengaged.
When ATT (Attitude) was selected in the number-2 IRS Mode Selector Unit, it resulted in the autopilot disengaging. The effect on the copilot’s electronic attitude display indicator (EADI) of switching from NAV to ATT was that the following displays were lost …
With the autopilot disengaged, the control wheel (aileron) centered and the aircraft began a slow roll to the right. Although the roll rate was momentarily arrested several times, the pilot did not begin to recover the roll attitude until the aircraft had reached a bank angle of 100 degrees, with the pitch attitude approaching 60 degrees aircraft nose down. At that point the aircraft had already accelerated past Mmo (0.82) and was reaching dive Mach number of 0.89. The overspeed warning activated at Mach 0.82. After the autopilot disengaged and the aircraft exceeded 30 degrees right bank, the pilots appeared to have become spatially disoriented.
The DFDR revealed that after the aircraft reached a dive Mach number of 0.89, the pilot began to roll the aircraft towards wings level, using a bank angle of less than 20 degrees (aileron). During this roll, the pilot pulled nose-up elevator in excess of 2gs of force. The g forces eventually reached 3.5gs as the Mach number reached a maximum of 0.926. The 3.5g force and Mach 0.926 airspeed are beyond the designed limitations …
The recorded airspeed exceeded Vdive (400 kcas), and reached a maximum of approximately 490 kcas just prior to the end of recording. At an altitude of approximately 12,000 feet, the normal load factor suddenly and rapidly reversed from around positive 3.5g to negative 2.8g.
The Boeing analysis suggested that:
This sudden change in load factor is an indication that the airplane has suffered a significant structural failure. The condition of 3.5g’s at 495 knots is well beyond the certified flight maneuvering envelope for generating loads for structural design and outside the envelope ...
= = = /\ = = = END excerpt = = = /\ = = =
This is a typical jet upset, yawXroll=dive; subtle entry, DIVE, increased IAS yield G's, maybe pilot pulls more back-stick to counter IAS .... Sometimes they impact; sometimes inflight break-up, sometimes a recovery (Captain Lynch and Captain Gibson).
OK, so where are you guys who claimed that SlikAir could ONLY have been an intentional entry??
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IRS is a navigational system that feed data into FMS. It's based on gyros, unlike the satellite-based GPS system.
I do believe the plane involved only has IRS, and the autopilot uses FMS and IRS as navigational tools. If the IRS is faulty then the autopilot is "tricked" into flying to the wrong position.
IRS failure is not something perilous if the crew knew how to deal with it... There are other navigational sources available to substitute it, like the VOR, DME, NDB, etc..
JA
I do believe the plane involved only has IRS, and the autopilot uses FMS and IRS as navigational tools. If the IRS is faulty then the autopilot is "tricked" into flying to the wrong position.
IRS failure is not something perilous if the crew knew how to deal with it... There are other navigational sources available to substitute it, like the VOR, DME, NDB, etc..
JA
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Thank you NTSC...
Thanks to the NTSC for literally putting it all on the record.
What was said in August-September2006, many refused to believe...
Inadequate training, poor standards, poor maintenance, you name it...
It's now official...
These things happened!
I hope this is a wake up call to the naughty carriers that, in the end, the price of safety is the price you put on the value of the lives on board your jet...
I hope many now realize that such a price of 40USD per life is too low (those who read the "flying circus" thread will know what this means...
The error became so bad that even radio nav input wouldn't help much... Basically, they lost orientation... and the rest is history... and I hope that includes the history of poor inadequate training, no copy of the QRH on board, no FCOM revisions, and the use of "training purposes FCOM" as FCOMs.
At least the "clean contacts, self test, problem solved" method of maintaining the IRS to deal with repeated problems was exposed... *grin*
PK-KAR
What was said in August-September2006, many refused to believe...
Inadequate training, poor standards, poor maintenance, you name it...
It's now official...
These things happened!
I hope this is a wake up call to the naughty carriers that, in the end, the price of safety is the price you put on the value of the lives on board your jet...
I hope many now realize that such a price of 40USD per life is too low (those who read the "flying circus" thread will know what this means...
I do believe the plane involved only has IRS, and the autopilot uses FMS and IRS as navigational tools. If the IRS is faulty then the autopilot is "tricked" into flying to the wrong position.
At least the "clean contacts, self test, problem solved" method of maintaining the IRS to deal with repeated problems was exposed... *grin*
PK-KAR
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Its a timely reminder that no matter what else is occuring, No1 priority is - Fly the airplane.
I'm not one to criticize the actions of fellow pilots, as I'm sure what they did made sense at the time. However one thing surprises me - 'rolling before pulling' is something ingrained in basic flight training. I have done a number of 'unusual attitude' recovery sessions, (PPL, CPL, MEP, IR, Jet upset course) as I suspect we all have and everyone said the same - roll level before you pull otherwise you've got a good chance of pulling the aircraft apart.
I'm not one to criticize the actions of fellow pilots, as I'm sure what they did made sense at the time. However one thing surprises me - 'rolling before pulling' is something ingrained in basic flight training. I have done a number of 'unusual attitude' recovery sessions, (PPL, CPL, MEP, IR, Jet upset course) as I suspect we all have and everyone said the same - roll level before you pull otherwise you've got a good chance of pulling the aircraft apart.
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737-400 landing speed
Hi, first post, not in the profession so be merciful, but wanted to have a general dig at media coverage of the final accident report.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...310511,00.html
Sky, in their sensationalist element, have accompanied this article with tenuously-related pictures of a Garuda crash, no doubt in the absence of any gory pics of the incident in question.
What bothered me was this line:
'An investigator said the plane was travelling at 10 times the normal landing speed when it hit the water and would have broken up on impact'.
Surely the landing speed of a 737 is more than 49kts?!
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...310511,00.html
Sky, in their sensationalist element, have accompanied this article with tenuously-related pictures of a Garuda crash, no doubt in the absence of any gory pics of the incident in question.
What bothered me was this line:
'An investigator said the plane was travelling at 10 times the normal landing speed when it hit the water and would have broken up on impact'.
Surely the landing speed of a 737 is more than 49kts?!
