raven11, where do I begin? Hmm... here:
Well..... Am I proud to be a Captain? You bet I am? Why shouldn't I be? I was damn proud to be hired by Cathay as a junior F/O (even with 6000 hours of command time on smaller jets), and I was damn proud when I was allowed to take off my two bars and put on my shiny new three bars, and then even more so with my four bars. I was proud every step of the way throughout my career. You weren't?
I will not get into a debate on pride. That's like debating religion or politics. I am proud when I achieve something I believe to be very special, something which would set me apart from most others. Being promoted at Cathay Pacific is far from a special achievement. Almost every pilot is promoted. How special is that? So, to answer your question, I was not proud every step of the way throughout my career. I was happy that I was making more money, had more time off and was able to make decisions and implement them rather than having to be directed by the decisions of someone else.
Perhaps you should consider it a good thing that our training standards here at Cathay are second to none.
A pretty lofty statement. I have found, during my 36 years of flying, that skills and judgment are acquired and perfected through experience on the line, not through "training." Training is necessary at the beginning, as well as during one's career, to develop and hone skills which are rarely used, but needed. I honestly cannot say that this kind of training at Cathay is any better or worse than that of any other airline for which I've flown (three.) My point, originally, in case you've forgotten, is that Cathay places way too much emphasis on checking rather than training.
I do not ignore the "broader context" of a P1 rating. Yes, there are some objective standards for testing as well as some very obvious subjective standards. My point is that Vol. 7 does NOT delineate any differences for these standards between captain and first officer. THAT'S why I didn't point out a particular passage from Vol. 7. The lack of one supports my position: there IS no difference.
How about you? Can YOU point out a passage from ANY of our documents which delineates the difference in performance expected from a captain versus a first officer?
What can be considered safe and effective for an FO is obviously different to what is expected of a Captain. To do otherwise would be unfair. An FO could do things on a check and pass that a captain could not.
So, you're implying that while the captain is asleep in the bunk that the aircraft is less safe and that if an emergency were to occur that the actions taken by the relief commander would be less effective than those which would have been taken by the captain?
To qualify to even begin a command course an FO's past performance is reviewed to consider his/her potential to achieve what is expected of a Captain by the end of the allotted time structured in the command course. That's in the Vol 7, did you skip that part?
No, I didn't skip that part. Think about our operation. Every day we fly, for years and years and years, the captain and the first officer(s) manage the flights. All information is shared, all decisions are discussed (in varying detail) and the reasoning for the decisions which are made and the actions which are taken are well understood by all involved. Although the captain has the final say, each crewmember participates. That's training! So, when it comes time for the first officer to become the captain, you tell ME what kind of additional training he NEEDS! The only thing he will be doing differently is he'll be flying from the left seat. He's seen all the rest and has been doing it, in conjunction with the captain, for the past 10 or 12 years. I really don't think any new training is necessary (except for the left seat thing) and my opinion is backed up with my experience: in previous airlines, when one becomes a captain he must first get a P1 rating (type rating) and then he's put in the left seat and OBSERVED. The observation period is to determine that he follows SOPs. No training is provided, because no training is necessary. This assumes that he was already flying the type of aircraft as a first officer and that he did not already have a P1 rating in that aircraft.
And 90% of our guys succeed on their first go…..I'd argue that speaks well about our training system.
Until I got to Cathay, I had never heard of someone not becoming captain when his seniority number allowed.
And then regarding Cat D FO’s you say : “imagine what will happen when Cathay has an incident and the captain was formerly a Cat D'd copilot. Imagine what the press and the insurance industry and the CAD will do with THAT one!”
Are you suggesting that Cathay do what other carriers do when an FO in their company fails to upgrade?
As I said above, I do not know of any other carriers which have first officers which have failed to upgrade. I am not saying there ARE none, I'm saying that I have not experienced that. Let's assume that there ARE some United Airlines first officers that did not pass their checkrides. First of all, they would be provided training (not just additional checking, like Cathay) until it was determined that they could not be trained to pass the checkride. They would then remain first officers until they were given another chance. They would NEVER be LABELED CAT D! The company would never make a judgment and document the statement "unsuitable for command training." There would be just a record of a failed checkride (no grades, just S or U.)
But to claim as you do to have learned nothing during your command course is arrogant. It is not what the vast majority of command course graduates tell the third floor. You must be an exception.....
As I said above, I learned everything I needed to know during the time I spent as a first officer and relief commander. I don't think that's arrogant at all. I would expect nothing less from each and every first officer! As to what "command course graduates" (now THAT'S a lofty title!) tell the third floor... do you think they tell the third floor anything other than what the third floor wants to hear? I certainly didn't tell the third floor that I learned nothing during my "command course."
It’s obvious I am not convincing you and that you are not convincing me…..and I'm sure we're beginning to bore the h*ll out of everyone here. You are entitled to your opinion, so let’s agree to disagree.
I agree. I'm sure everyone is very bored. Yes, each is entitled to his or her opinion. I agree to disagree.