Monetrealguy - we are both changing the subject as this thread is about an accident in Pakistan. If you want an intellectual debate about semantics and terminology then you are probably in the wrong place. Nonetheless, my question to you stands - do you believe that non-western aviation is safer than its western counterpart and that any views to the contrary are merely cultural foolishness on the part of myself and others still stuck in a Cold War bunker somewhere? While you are thinking about that, may I draw your attention to a particularly interesting thread about an accident in Moscow involving a 'Dagestan Airlines' Russian-built aircraft. It does make fascinating reading - a mere coincidence I am sure.