Originally Posted by gtaflyer
Both occured as a result of bad weather, resulting in possible loss of situational awareness and deviation fron SOPs.
Your conclusion of cause appears to be in advance of the facts being provided from the CVR and FDR.
whichever way one looks at this one thing seems to stare us in the face and that is that this is a human error rearing its ugly head once again and not one involving aircraft technical failure as far as i am aware.
Given that data to help us arrive at such a conclusion are absent, I'd be careful of eliminating mechanical or technical fault as a contributing factor. We don't know what had the attention of the crew, or if a system was not working right, or failed. Since we don't, most of the folks here are eager to find out.
maybe the people that train in PIA AND AIRBLUE are from same airforce backgrounds so much so that they really are the wrong stuff for airline material.
I am sorry, this is sloppy thinking. An Air Force pilot or a Navy Pilot shows, if he lasts for a while in that profession, that he is trainable. If he or she is to transition to transport flying, or passenger flying, what is needed is the transition training. To presume that the pilot cannot adapt nor train for the new task requirements is utter rubbish, since here in America we have found quite the opposite: the Air Force and Navy Pilots from a variety of backgrounds can transition to the new profession ... via a training syllabus and experience.
From an CRM perpective the experience gradient is all too true and familiar in this case of an experienced captain (whose attitude is i can do everything cos i flew fighter jets all by myself) and the 300 hour f/o who dare even to to question the former.
Those cultural issues are a danger to any multi crew aircraft, regardless of where the captain and the FO come from. It is also a danger in multi place helicopter crews.
How can a F/O ever question a senior captain or put it more simply why did airblue OR GOVERNMENT CAA allow such an experince gradient to exist in the cockpit in the first place ? and should there be a cover pilot in the third seat in such situations?
Under CRM principles, any time flying an FO can question a senior captain when flight safety is an issue. If that isn't being embraced by the organization, a third pilot isn't going to solve the problem of a Captain not listening.
Perhaps Pakistan we need to review and learn from the past mishaps before we can even consider going forward.The eyes of the world are once again upon this troubled nation
Hopefully more than just Pakistan will learn something from this mishap to help air safety in general.
I share the grief of the families who have lost there loved ones, and deepest condolences..ALLAH DE MARZI to all whome have lost there loved ones on the airblue flight and also from the recent floods in the region
It has been a tough month, my heart goes out across the seas to the people there.