Yes, Denzil, in order to smooth a few ruffled feathers, I should have pointed out that all ground and flight crews are affected by poor management decisions and planning, not just pilots. I am well aware that the Flight Engineers ahve been made redundant, one of my best mates is holding such a letter now. Hopefully traffic is picking up so quickly now and the Classics won't be retired, but that won't help the many already laid off due to the rush by management to ease the balance sheet without a thought of the consequences. My sources tell me that the feeling is so high in VS about the way the management have treated flight and Cabin crew, that VS will find it very hard replacing vrews that will never work for them again when things finally improve.