Virgin restarts recruitment
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With regards to The Big Easy's comments, I believe this is true.
However, I have been also been informed that the a/c will be operating on Air Atlanta's aoc with VS flight deck and VS cabin crew (C/C IFS though!)
However, I have been also been informed that the a/c will be operating on Air Atlanta's aoc with VS flight deck and VS cabin crew (C/C IFS though!)
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Norman Stanley,
As a matter of interest, have you , or any other Ppruneres got any numbers for the amount of foreign pilots working here, under flags of convenience/ grandmother/ grandfather born in the UK? It seems crazy that UK pilots are on the dole, when pilots here from overseas are working.
Are we talking large numbers?
As a matter of interest, have you , or any other Ppruneres got any numbers for the amount of foreign pilots working here, under flags of convenience/ grandmother/ grandfather born in the UK? It seems crazy that UK pilots are on the dole, when pilots here from overseas are working.
Are we talking large numbers?
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Apologies to others who are discussing specifically VS management. I realise I am diverging from the thread, but am doing so to answer a question raised.
Tosh
I simply do not know exact numbers but we are talking of a lot (possibly hundreds). By way of example, I went to an easyJet interview last year(a company I really like and wish well) and of 8 the pilots being assessed, 6 were not British. (Not sour grapes by the way - they offered me the job). That scene is repeated week-in, week-out.
To an extent we are victims of our history. One of the difficulties is that virtually the whole English-speaking world can trace a distant relative to the UK. In addition, as 'proud' members of the EU, we must take all European citizens on an equal basis to UK citizens, and by definition their distant relatives as well. A significant proportion of the world's aviators are therefore eligible to work in Britain, and not surprisingly are attempting to do so! I should say that I in no way blame these folk for taking advantage of our lax system, and I would never be anything other than courteous to them at a personal level. They are only looking after their own welfare and that of their families, which they cannot be blamed for. We, however, can be blamed for letting it happen. The problem lies with BALPA and the government not being willing to take this issue on. I am sure the ironies of this situation are not lost on the countless unemployed UK pilots who cannot get jobs when loads of foreign pilots are working here. If we do not look after our own pilots then you can be certain no one else will.
The UK has among the most boyant economies in the world, and that reflects in the relatively high numbers of pilots required compared to our population. We are therefore very attractive to foreign pilots. As we are all aware, many people from less fortunate economic circumstances are attempting to come here by whatever method is open to them, and that is happening at every level of society. Pilots are only one facet of that.
For me, the solution is very simple. No airline who benefits from having bases in the UK and a significant part of its business emanating from here, should be permitted to employ foreign pilots until all unemployed British pilots have jobs. Clearly not every pilot is suitable for every job, but as long as we have keen, highly-motivated frozen-ATPLs and indeed more experienced pilots out of work, we should not contemplate taking on foreign nationals.
Sorry again to the VS thread followers for this slight deviation.
[ 13 January 2002: Message edited by: Norman Stanley Fletcher ]</p>
Tosh
I simply do not know exact numbers but we are talking of a lot (possibly hundreds). By way of example, I went to an easyJet interview last year(a company I really like and wish well) and of 8 the pilots being assessed, 6 were not British. (Not sour grapes by the way - they offered me the job). That scene is repeated week-in, week-out.
To an extent we are victims of our history. One of the difficulties is that virtually the whole English-speaking world can trace a distant relative to the UK. In addition, as 'proud' members of the EU, we must take all European citizens on an equal basis to UK citizens, and by definition their distant relatives as well. A significant proportion of the world's aviators are therefore eligible to work in Britain, and not surprisingly are attempting to do so! I should say that I in no way blame these folk for taking advantage of our lax system, and I would never be anything other than courteous to them at a personal level. They are only looking after their own welfare and that of their families, which they cannot be blamed for. We, however, can be blamed for letting it happen. The problem lies with BALPA and the government not being willing to take this issue on. I am sure the ironies of this situation are not lost on the countless unemployed UK pilots who cannot get jobs when loads of foreign pilots are working here. If we do not look after our own pilots then you can be certain no one else will.
The UK has among the most boyant economies in the world, and that reflects in the relatively high numbers of pilots required compared to our population. We are therefore very attractive to foreign pilots. As we are all aware, many people from less fortunate economic circumstances are attempting to come here by whatever method is open to them, and that is happening at every level of society. Pilots are only one facet of that.
For me, the solution is very simple. No airline who benefits from having bases in the UK and a significant part of its business emanating from here, should be permitted to employ foreign pilots until all unemployed British pilots have jobs. Clearly not every pilot is suitable for every job, but as long as we have keen, highly-motivated frozen-ATPLs and indeed more experienced pilots out of work, we should not contemplate taking on foreign nationals.
Sorry again to the VS thread followers for this slight deviation.
[ 13 January 2002: Message edited by: Norman Stanley Fletcher ]</p>
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mutt- very good point.
NS Fletcher - I was born in a Commonwealth country of British parents. I grew up in that country, and worked there for many years before coming to the UK. I hold both UK and "the other country" passports. In your opinion am I a "foreigner" or merely a Brit returned home?
To return to Mutt's point, I personally know 11 Britsh pilots working in my country of birth, thereby taking jobs from unemployed locals (and there are just as many per capita there as in UK). Not one of those British pilots has taken out citizenship, they are all permanent residents or on work permits. If you want the "foreigners" out of the UK, then you must be prepared for the Brit expats to return home - I suspect you will find that the one more or less balances out the other and the unemployed frozen-ATPLs will be no better off.
The point I'm trying to make - somewhat longwindedly - is that movement between countries is by no means unusual and occurs in most parts of the world and in both directions. (The one exception, as far as pilots are concerned anyway, is that self-proclaimed champion of the free and land of opportunity, the US!! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> )
NS Fletcher - I was born in a Commonwealth country of British parents. I grew up in that country, and worked there for many years before coming to the UK. I hold both UK and "the other country" passports. In your opinion am I a "foreigner" or merely a Brit returned home?
To return to Mutt's point, I personally know 11 Britsh pilots working in my country of birth, thereby taking jobs from unemployed locals (and there are just as many per capita there as in UK). Not one of those British pilots has taken out citizenship, they are all permanent residents or on work permits. If you want the "foreigners" out of the UK, then you must be prepared for the Brit expats to return home - I suspect you will find that the one more or less balances out the other and the unemployed frozen-ATPLs will be no better off.
The point I'm trying to make - somewhat longwindedly - is that movement between countries is by no means unusual and occurs in most parts of the world and in both directions. (The one exception, as far as pilots are concerned anyway, is that self-proclaimed champion of the free and land of opportunity, the US!! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> )
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Mutt - thank you for your post. No, I would not be as rigid as to say all Brit expats must return home immediately. I am not a xenophobic nationalist, fascist etc etc. What I would say, is that foreign pilots, including Brits, must recognise that the first responsibility of their host nation must be to their own citizens. Therefore, they must go in with their eyes open to any expat work. We all know the realities of work in the Middle East, for example, where nationals who are manifestly less suitable are promoted ahead of expats. I do not condone institutionalised injustice not would I wish to see people who we have invited here discriminated against because of their national origin. What I want to see is the end to the current abuse of our system. And that means that we simply do not employ them in the first place. Once they have been employed, natural justice dictates that we honour our agreements to them.
Tired - thank you also for your comments. To an extent you have hit the nail on the head and caused me to really think through what I think. I do not know what Commonwealth country you were brought up and it does not really matter. Say it is Australia for the sake of argument. There are 2 points I would make. The first is that I am opposed to dual nationality. Many nations in the world do not permit it, and nor should we. (The only exception could be for children of kids of mixed-nationality parentage where I could see an argument for dual citizenship.) Are you British or are your Australian? You cannot be both. If someone wants to be British, then in order to enjoy the benefits and priveleges of citizenship, they should accept the full responsibilities of that including taxation, service in the Armed Forces should it arise, have no overriding allegiance to another nation and in their heart of hearts be well-disposed towards the British nation and its people. The second point is to answer your question about having British parents but be born and brought up in another country. I understand that you also worked in this other country until coming here to pursue your flying career. My short answer is that in your case, as I understand it, you should be allowed to retain citizenship - but only if you return to live here. If, however, you had stayed in that or indeed any other country, your children should not be entitled to British citizenship. By the terms I discussed earlier, you and your family have emigrated and changed allegiance to another nation (which is your perogitive). Your children could not reasonably be said to have any real ties to Britain, and nor would Britain have any responsibilities towards them. We would wish them well, but their citizenship and loyalties would clearly lie in that foreign country. That in essence is the issue of 'flag of convenience' passports. If such children suddenly find the going difficult in their current country, they should have no rights whatsoever to come here as their parents and grandparents made a conscious choice to leave to pastures new and therefore forfeited the rights and responsibilities of being British citizens. They have the responsibility for that and must accept the good or the bad that their decision brings. It is perhaps easier to think of this from the other perspective. We offer instant citizenship to anyone born here - ie the first generation. We can reasonably expect that first generation to make a choice as to their loyalties when they are old enough to do so. We certainly would not offer any citizenship rights to their grandchildren regardless of where they are born. We have no moral responsibilities to provide employment, education, benefits etc etc in such cases. I realise this is a tricky subject, and it is difficult to write down clear, succinct arguments, but as you asked the question I have tried to answer the question accurately.
Tired - thank you also for your comments. To an extent you have hit the nail on the head and caused me to really think through what I think. I do not know what Commonwealth country you were brought up and it does not really matter. Say it is Australia for the sake of argument. There are 2 points I would make. The first is that I am opposed to dual nationality. Many nations in the world do not permit it, and nor should we. (The only exception could be for children of kids of mixed-nationality parentage where I could see an argument for dual citizenship.) Are you British or are your Australian? You cannot be both. If someone wants to be British, then in order to enjoy the benefits and priveleges of citizenship, they should accept the full responsibilities of that including taxation, service in the Armed Forces should it arise, have no overriding allegiance to another nation and in their heart of hearts be well-disposed towards the British nation and its people. The second point is to answer your question about having British parents but be born and brought up in another country. I understand that you also worked in this other country until coming here to pursue your flying career. My short answer is that in your case, as I understand it, you should be allowed to retain citizenship - but only if you return to live here. If, however, you had stayed in that or indeed any other country, your children should not be entitled to British citizenship. By the terms I discussed earlier, you and your family have emigrated and changed allegiance to another nation (which is your perogitive). Your children could not reasonably be said to have any real ties to Britain, and nor would Britain have any responsibilities towards them. We would wish them well, but their citizenship and loyalties would clearly lie in that foreign country. That in essence is the issue of 'flag of convenience' passports. If such children suddenly find the going difficult in their current country, they should have no rights whatsoever to come here as their parents and grandparents made a conscious choice to leave to pastures new and therefore forfeited the rights and responsibilities of being British citizens. They have the responsibility for that and must accept the good or the bad that their decision brings. It is perhaps easier to think of this from the other perspective. We offer instant citizenship to anyone born here - ie the first generation. We can reasonably expect that first generation to make a choice as to their loyalties when they are old enough to do so. We certainly would not offer any citizenship rights to their grandchildren regardless of where they are born. We have no moral responsibilities to provide employment, education, benefits etc etc in such cases. I realise this is a tricky subject, and it is difficult to write down clear, succinct arguments, but as you asked the question I have tried to answer the question accurately.
