At some stage Artie there will be an upturn.... and 12 months ahead of that will be a great time to start training... you may see that the thread is now called "growing evidence the upturn is upon us"...... you never know you might get some evidence that that is just around the corner on this thread in the months ahead given the breadth of experience and different backgrounds of the people that contribute...... might not get that on your "bears sh*t in the woods" thread..... just a thought.