Knuckles:
Can we get a better deal?
at this moment i think not.
You are obviously not a poker player.
How the heck would you know if a better deal could not be obtained?
The closest both you and DC can come to a rational, logical determination of your worth is international benchmarking, suitably adjusted for cost of living, exchange rates, tax, etc. Has your executive or international association done that? Perhaps it should.
Qantas itself would have a good idea of man hour / Block hour ratios and how theirs benchmark against other airlines, but they sure as hell won't tell you unless it suited their negotiating stance.
So absent this logical wage setting process (which was torpedoed many years ago by Government) you are playing poker with the company. You have absolutely no idea what QF's
actual "worst case" (ie: Best for you) position might be, I don't think even DC would know this.
Lets be very clear on what we mean by this: It means the point at which QF Board will approve the deal with much gnashing of teeth, and real (not pretend) screaming and crying - but will still grudgingly approve.
The only way to find if you are even close to this pain point is to call their bluff.
The reason you are all in extremis now is that in successive EBA's
no one has called QF's Bluff. So you don't know what you are really worth to Qantas do you? Furthermore, during successive EBA's, your knowledge of what you were worth to Qantas has progressively deteriorated, thanks to the negotiating stance of your former executive.
Now Qantas management would regard this is a very desirable state for LAMES to be placed in, because scared, fearful, people who doubt their own worth are very easy to bargain with because they won't call anyone's bluff.
Rest assured, Qantas will do everything possible by way of engendering fear, uncertainty and doubt in all your minds to get you to accept the deal without calling it's bluff. Thats what all the crap about "Legacy airline", "Outsourcing" and "Asian MRO's" means as well as QF managements constant whining about costs. Thats just good business sense - always whine about costs with a straight face, especially when you are making off with tonnes of loot. Farmers have got this down to an art form (a pet peeve of mine).
And unless you do call their bluff, you will never know if they were bluffing will you?
Furthermore, as each EBA slips away without the bluff ever having been called it becomes progressively easier to bluff you.
Now it may be that Qantas is not bluffing, but there is no way you can find out. This is just a statement of fact.
You are in a take it or leave it position, the only thing being obvious is that if you do, then absent radical international change, your bargaining position will be even weaker next time you confront the same management.
It's up to you.
P.S. Wingers appears right on cue and with a predictable FUD message. I would expect others with a similar viewpoint (signed up in late 2007/early 2008) will make their appearance shortly. Perhaps QF might actually try and swamp this forum with a hundred or so newbie trolls.
And Wingers, I am simply stating the facts and attempting to clarify the true position you guys are in, which for the record is:
1. You guys have been given a vote. There is no external penalty or moral or ethical reason to vote one way or the other, despite what people have tried to tell you in the past. (eg: "Its unprofessional to grovel for money", "we have a duty to the Australian travelling public")
You guys are in a wages negotiation. Morality doesn't come into it. You have a vote. Use it as you see fit.
2. You are playing poker with your employer. You have been made an offer. You are told that it is final. There is only one way you can find out if this is true, just like poker. It's up to you.
3. I have no stake in any outcome. What does offend my sense of equity and fairness is the amount of slimy misinformation, fear uncertainty and doubt (FUD) that has been fed to you through the pages of Pprune over the years in connection with your pay and conditions, and the obvious distress this has caused many of you, and that is why I've posted.