Merged: Jetstar EBA 4

[Chimbu chuckles]

It is a complete waste of time trying to discuss issues like this because the vast majority of posters seem caught up in some sort of trench mentality where they are incapable of seeing the woods for the trees.

Many of you need to look up 'negotiation' and 'in good faith' in a dictionary.

J* management brought forward the EBA because they probably thought, like we all do, that experienced pilots are getting a little thin on the ground.

They and the JPC have tried to come up with a package that would retain current pilots and attract those they need to crew planned expansion. There is not a manager worth the title who is going to pay 1 cent more than he needs to...AIPA/AFAP or JPC can suggest anything they like and if management doesn't think it reasonable they say NO...you can sit there and turn red in the face and it will achieve precisely nothing except make you look silly...even if you're right.

I have yet to see anything that hints either AIPA or AFAP have suggested the actual money on offer was not a pretty reasonable outcome.

Had EBA 4 been voted up a few weeks ago what would have been the result?

I think it likely all pilots, including those employed currently on an AWA, would have been offered employment on EBA 4. Most pilots in the company would have realised a substantial payrise...certainly those the company wants to retain...Captains for the most part.

Remember no one is actually leaving J*...certainly not captains. If a bunch of FOs head off to the sandpit so what? Believe it or not there are enough youngsters out there who are prepared to salary sacrifice an A320 type rating for the T&Cs currently on offer.

There actually wouldn't be THAT many current FOs at J* who qualify for an asian/sandpit airline...the longest serving J* FO has been in what, 15 months? Given current expansion plans every single current FO will be a captain within 2 years if they meet the standards. In my view any current FO who is stupid enough to (even want to) jump ship and head off at this point in time should be viewed as mentally defective and waved off with a sigh of relief.

So should J* be worried if say 10 or even 20 FOs resigned for 'better' T*Cs somewhere else...I actually don't think so given I know of 10 experienced guys who would replace them near instantly...much more experienced than those FOs who might leave...guys with YEARS more experience on A320s than any current J* FO...and less than 2 years to command!

Should the company be worried about 10 or 20 captains leaving...yes most certainly...although to date they have lost how many?

One figure I heard was...One.

If EBA 4 did not achieve their twin goals of attract and retain those they want to attract and retain what would have happened next?

Well if you honestly believe J* would not have come back to the JPC and the unified pilot group and opened up further negotiation in good faith to achieve those twin goals then I am sorry but you're an idiot.

It might even happen that in the fullness of time IF this pilot shortage is as deep as we all hope and IF the regional economies hold up that J* pilots unified under EBA 4.3 might be on substantially better T&Cs than EBA 4 provides...but an attitude of "We want it now, stick it up those bastards" will NOT achieve that outcome...all that would achieve is management convinced they have retards flying their aircraft.

Compare CX and KA given what I have said above...insignificant (but possibly increasing) numbers leaving CX and they get a 'desultory' 3% payrise that doesn't come close to keeping up with inflation. Pilots leaving KA in DROVES and they get a 20% payrise...which may or may not be enough to achieve KA's goal of retaining and attracting pilots...in fact at present it actually doesn't look like it will be enough.

Does anyone think the CX 'A' scale came into existence because Swire Group was staffed by managers who loved throwing money at pilots? The 'A' scale was simply what it took at the time to attract and retain pilots in HK...I personally think we will see an A scale offered again in parts of asia.

The airline where I work had few pilots leave for many years...because the overall package was pretty damn good...then in the last few years that has changed substantially due currency exchange rate fluctuations (not the companies fault but certainly their problem) and other factors so we got a payrise...and we're now experiencing the beginnings of a further exodus...probably captains and probably big enough to make the last look like a non event (some coming home to Oz)...and as it unfolds I have no doubt we'll get another pay rise. If not they will be parking jets...very soon.

Now had they raised our pay by twice or three times what we got a year or so back we all would have been thrilled to bits but it just does not work that way...any manager seriously suggesting it would find their employment status changing rapidly.

You need to stick your head above the parapet sometimes and take an unemotional look around...having surveyed your surroundings you need to come up with a reasoned, adult response to what you see.

I don't think the recent NO vote qualified.